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Re: "silent e" in DTS 16-18/23 (was: "ea" in Bombadil Mode)

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  • j_mach_wust
    ... like ... to the ... finding ... 23, ... copy in ... sound in ... Yes I have, one in DTS 16 (in a word you ve cited). ;) ... You may still find his texts if
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 8, 2004
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
      > j_mach_wust wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
      > > >> <>Hello,
      > > >>
      > > >> I was wondering how you would spell "earth" in the modes of the
      > > >> Bombadil poem/Errantry calligraphies (DTS 16-18) [...].
      > >
      > > >In an analysis of Tolkien's phonemic English modes, this sound (that
      > > >occurs in words like "EARth, wORd, gIRl, lURk, mERge" should be
      > > >considered to form a unity together with the following /r/. We can
      > > >think of it as a kind of stressed syllabic r (opposed to the
      > > >unstressed syllabic r in words like "bettER").
      > >
      > > >> In the "Bombadil mode", could one use the sign that looks a bit
      > > >> a lower-case Latin alphabet "r" (and occurs for example in DTS 18,
      > > >> line 1, word 3 and word 5, etc.)? The rest of the word of course
      > > >> spelt with óre - thúle. This letter seems to come the closest
      to the
      > > >> "ea" sound in earth.
      > >
      > > >In all attested instances, this sound is spelled with (normal) short
      > > >carrier + óre.
      > >
      > Thanks! I had an admittedly rather quick look at the samples in the
      > "Bombadil mode" samples that I could think of (DTS 16-18 and DTS 23 [So
      > Lúthien]--are there any other specimina?), and I had a hard time
      > many instances. Maybe you could give me a hint where to look? In DTS
      > I _did_ find "purchased" (last line but one), and looking at the
      copy in
      > "Lays of Beleriand" (p.299 HarperCollins hardback), I agree with you
      > that one could very well interpret as a short carrier (without a dot) +
      > óre. (Interestingly, Chris McKay in his ISS renders this as anna + óre,
      > though. I guess you would concur, then, that that's an error?).
      > Then I found "lurking" in line 6 of DTS 23, which provides another
      > clearcut example.
      > I would be curious to know if you've found any examples of this
      sound in
      > the DTS 16-18, because I havent't :).

      Yes I have, one in DTS 16 (in a word you've cited). ;)

      > In Elfling message #2530, you wrote:
      > "I'd spell the <er> in 'keener' with oore and a point below, as this
      > is the most common spelling of the '-er' ending. The explanation's
      > simple: The 'e' is mute, because the 'r' functions as a vowel,
      > similar to the 'm' in 'rhythm'."
      > Unfortunately, I don't know exactly which mode you're referring to
      > here (tried to hit the link in Chris Ruzin's mail in reply to which
      > you made this commment, but page no longer found :)), but you must
      > be describing orthographic modes here surely? Otherwise, how to
      > explain the above evidence (óre without under-dot)?

      You may still find his texts if you google for them. It's orthographic
      modes. The dot should be below the preceding consonant, for sure, not
      below the óre. This is the most common spelling in the King's Letters.

      > Now, I am truly confused by this: Apart from silent "e" before/after
      > "r" (which is represented by óre alone in the phonetic modes DTS
      > 16-18/23), there seems to be not much regularity as to when a dot
      > for mute "e" is and isn't used. Cf. DTS 16, line 7, "perfumed" (no
      > dot), line 9, "called" (no dot); DTS 17, line 11, "pulled" (no dot);
      > DTS 18, stanza 8, line 2, "inside" (no dot), DTS 18, stanza 5, line
      > 2, "care" (no dot) etc., all vs. the following occurrences that do
      > have an under-dot: DTS 16, "Errantry" and "seventeen" as quoted
      > above; DTS 17, line 8 "dangled", line 18, "frightening"; DTS 18,
      > "little" as quoted above, or stanza 8, line 3, "wooden".
      > Even in DTS 23, we sometimes see an under-dot for silent "e" (stanza
      > 1, line 3, "welcome" [twice], stanza 3, fifth line from the bottom,
      > "minstrels", last two lines, "little", but on many other occasions
      > (stanza 1, line 6, "like", to name just one) we don't.

      In these modes, the dot below has nothing to do with the silent e of
      traditional orthography, but with the syllabicity of the consonant
      it's written below.

      In "prr-fjumd", "koold", "puld", "insaid", "ker", "laik", etc. (giving
      a romanization of Tolkien's tengwar orthography), there's no syllabic
      consonants, whereas in "E-rN-tri", "se-vN-tiin", "dan-gLd", "li-tL",
      "wu-dN", "wel-kM", "mins-trLz", there are syllabic consonants. In the
      case of "frightening", there doesn't need to be a syllabic consonant
      (it may be "frait-ning"), but "frai-tN" would definitly have one.

      You may also have a look at the "overview" I've written (follow e.g.
      the link of my signature).

      j. 'mach' wust
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