Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Love Poem in tengwar and Latin letters

Expand Messages
  • Gregson Vaux
    Hi everyone, I posted the love poem I wrote several weeks ago in tengwar. I didn t include a version in Latin letters at the time for those who are new to
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 3, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi everyone,

      I posted the love poem I wrote several weeks ago in tengwar. I didn't
      include a version in Latin letters at the time for those who are new
      to reading tengwar and wanted to try to puzzle it out. I have now
      posted the Latin letter (regular letters) version to help those who
      have trouble reading tengwar. I count myself among those who have trouble.

      In a few days, I will post the sad story behind this poem.

      The name of the file is "Love Poem"

      Gregson Vaux
    • calwen76
      I ve read the Tengwar text and have the following notes : beside Mach s comments conc. the usage of yanta and anna, I don t know why are you using a long
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 5, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        I've read the Tengwar text and have the following 'notes':

        beside Mach's comments conc. the usage of yanta and anna, I don't
        know why are you using a long carrier for short vowels... I can
        understand it in the words *I, beauty, breeze (though you seem to be
        inconsistent concerning doubled vowels in breeze/freeze);
        me, be*.

        I don't understand the usage of the long carrier in words *to, ocean*.

        The inconsistency seems to be present in all your transcription:

        cp. _beauty_ r. 3 x _beauty_ r. 6
        cp. _a_ r. 6 x _a_ r. 23
        cp. _trees_, _breeze_ r. 10 x _knees_ r. 11 x _freeze_ r. 13 x _see_
        r. 24
        cp. _no_ r. 12 x _no_ rs. 14, 16

        Then I would write the wave for double L inside lambe, not below, but
        it just my opinion.

        Further, the word _peace_ (rs. 8, 21) reads _peaae_.

        Row 14 lacks the word _sky_.

        I would write the word _voices_ (r. 7) rather as: ampa, anna with O-
        tehta, silme, silme nuquerna with an accute accent, since the E is
        pronounced, not silent.

        That's it. BTW, good job, Gregson.

        Lucy
      • Samantha Scrivani
        i dont know why but i have wrote this message for ever and i never get a response back b/c it comes back to my email and says message couldnt be posted. So im
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 5, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          i dont know why but i have wrote this message for ever and i never get a response back b/c it comes back to my email and says message couldnt be posted. So im going to ask you in elven i found out that HOPE is ESTEL or ESTELA. I can't find out however how to write that in elven writing, i want it in a tattoo and i want it to be write. if you could help or know any one else that could help that would be great.


          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harri Perälä
          ... Maybe you used an unknown email address (see http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/messages/messages-02.html)? ... Estela is not from Tolkien, it s Grey
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Samantha Scrivani wrote:
            > i dont know why but i have wrote this message for ever and i
            > never get a response back b/c it comes back to my email and
            > says message couldnt be posted.

            Maybe you used an unknown email address (see
            http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/messages/messages-02.html)?

            > in elven i found out that HOPE is ESTEL or ESTELA.

            "Estela" is not from Tolkien, it's Grey Company RPG Elvish. Estel can be
            translated "hope", but that is hardly the whole story. If you plan to
            have a tattoo made of this word, you'll probably want to read the
            Athrabeth (in Morgoth's Ring), which talks about the difference between
            the words estel and amdir, both meaning "hope". Another explanation of
            estel appears in The War of the Jewels (chapter "Maeglin", commentary on
            paragraph 4).

            There are several possible ways to write the word in tengwar. According
            to the note in WJ, the same word was used in both Quenya and Sindarin.
            For Sindarin, one could use:

            (1) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, and the vowel tehta is
            placed above the following consonant, as in DTS 49 - King's Letter,
            Third Version.
            (2) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, but the vowel tehta is
            placed above the preceding consonant, as in the "general use" example in
            DTS 58 - The Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions.
            (3) A full writing mode (separate letters for vowels), as in (for
            example) DTS 45 - King's Letter, second version. The spelling of this
            word would be the same also in the mode of Beleriand seen in the west
            gate of Moria illustration.

            For Quenya, (2) is presumably the most standard way. Both the classical
            Q mode and the general use with tehta above preceding consonant give the
            same spelling for "estel". I suppose (1) is also possible (DTS 54 - Heru
            imillion is apparently an example). Full writing is used for a Quenya
            name in the 1st and 2nd versions of the King's Letter, but as a part of
            a Sindarin text, so it probably doesn't count.

            To learn to write in some of these modes, see:

            - Amanye Tenceli, http://w1.860.comhem.se/~u86023928/at/
            - Tengwar Guides, http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

            And most importantly, keep asking questions when something is not clear.

            Explanation to the DTS references can be found at
            http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html. I used the Index of
            Significant Samples (http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/pubs.htm) to
            check the contents of some samples.

            Harri Perälä
          • Samantha Scrivani
            Thank you sooo much. I m so happy to hear from someone. I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel in Sindarin and Quenya. I dont want to
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 6, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you sooo much. I'm so happy to hear from someone. I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel in Sindarin and Quenya. I dont want to do it wrong and then get a tattoo that means something different. thank you!!!!!
              Harri Per�l� <harri.perala@...> wrote:Samantha Scrivani wrote:
              > i dont know why but i have wrote this message for ever and i
              > never get a response back b/c it comes back to my email and
              > says message couldnt be posted.

              Maybe you used an unknown email address (see
              http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/messages/messages-02.html)?

              > in elven i found out that HOPE is ESTEL or ESTELA.

              "Estela" is not from Tolkien, it's Grey Company RPG Elvish. Estel can be
              translated "hope", but that is hardly the whole story. If you plan to
              have a tattoo made of this word, you'll probably want to read the
              Athrabeth (in Morgoth's Ring), which talks about the difference between
              the words estel and amdir, both meaning "hope". Another explanation of
              estel appears in The War of the Jewels (chapter "Maeglin", commentary on
              paragraph 4).

              There are several possible ways to write the word in tengwar. According
              to the note in WJ, the same word was used in both Quenya and Sindarin.
              For Sindarin, one could use:

              (1) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, and the vowel tehta is
              placed above the following consonant, as in DTS 49 - King's Letter,
              Third Version.
              (2) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, but the vowel tehta is
              placed above the preceding consonant, as in the "general use" example in
              DTS 58 - The Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions.
              (3) A full writing mode (separate letters for vowels), as in (for
              example) DTS 45 - King's Letter, second version. The spelling of this
              word would be the same also in the mode of Beleriand seen in the west
              gate of Moria illustration.

              For Quenya, (2) is presumably the most standard way. Both the classical
              Q mode and the general use with tehta above preceding consonant give the
              same spelling for "estel". I suppose (1) is also possible (DTS 54 - Heru
              imillion is apparently an example). Full writing is used for a Quenya
              name in the 1st and 2nd versions of the King's Letter, but as a part of
              a Sindarin text, so it probably doesn't count.

              To learn to write in some of these modes, see:

              - Amanye Tenceli, http://w1.860.comhem.se/~u86023928/at/
              - Tengwar Guides, http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

              And most importantly, keep asking questions when something is not clear.

              Explanation to the DTS references can be found at
              http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html. I used the Index of
              Significant Samples (http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/pubs.htm) to
              check the contents of some samples.

              Harri Per�l�


              To Post a message, send it to: elfscript@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: elfscript-unsubscribe@...


              Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              elfscript-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




              ---------------------------------
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Samantha Scrivani
              Thank you sooo much. I m so happy to hear from someone. I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel in Sindarin and Quenya. I dont want to
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 6, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you sooo much. I'm so happy to hear from someone. I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel in Sindarin and Quenya. I dont want to do it wrong and then get a tattoo that means something different. thank you!!!!!
                Harri Per�l� <harri.perala@...> wrote:Samantha Scrivani wrote:
                > i dont know why but i have wrote this message for ever and i
                > never get a response back b/c it comes back to my email and
                > says message couldnt be posted.

                Maybe you used an unknown email address (see
                http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/messages/messages-02.html)?

                > in elven i found out that HOPE is ESTEL or ESTELA.

                "Estela" is not from Tolkien, it's Grey Company RPG Elvish. Estel can be
                translated "hope", but that is hardly the whole story. If you plan to
                have a tattoo made of this word, you'll probably want to read the
                Athrabeth (in Morgoth's Ring), which talks about the difference between
                the words estel and amdir, both meaning "hope". Another explanation of
                estel appears in The War of the Jewels (chapter "Maeglin", commentary on
                paragraph 4).

                There are several possible ways to write the word in tengwar. According
                to the note in WJ, the same word was used in both Quenya and Sindarin.
                For Sindarin, one could use:

                (1) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, and the vowel tehta is
                placed above the following consonant, as in DTS 49 - King's Letter,
                Third Version.
                (2) A mode where vowels are indicated by tehtar, but the vowel tehta is
                placed above the preceding consonant, as in the "general use" example in
                DTS 58 - The Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions.
                (3) A full writing mode (separate letters for vowels), as in (for
                example) DTS 45 - King's Letter, second version. The spelling of this
                word would be the same also in the mode of Beleriand seen in the west
                gate of Moria illustration.

                For Quenya, (2) is presumably the most standard way. Both the classical
                Q mode and the general use with tehta above preceding consonant give the
                same spelling for "estel". I suppose (1) is also possible (DTS 54 - Heru
                imillion is apparently an example). Full writing is used for a Quenya
                name in the 1st and 2nd versions of the King's Letter, but as a part of
                a Sindarin text, so it probably doesn't count.

                To learn to write in some of these modes, see:

                - Amanye Tenceli, http://w1.860.comhem.se/~u86023928/at/
                - Tengwar Guides, http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

                And most importantly, keep asking questions when something is not clear.

                Explanation to the DTS references can be found at
                http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html. I used the Index of
                Significant Samples (http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/pubs.htm) to
                check the contents of some samples.

                Harri Per�l�


                To Post a message, send it to: elfscript@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: elfscript-unsubscribe@...


                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                elfscript-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Harri Perälä
                ... Such requests are sometimes answered here. I try to stay away from tattoo stuff myself, which means I probably should not have replied to this in the first
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 8, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Samantha Scrivani wrote:
                  > I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel
                  > in Sindarin and Quenya.

                  Such requests are sometimes answered here. I try to stay away from
                  tattoo stuff myself, which means I probably should not have replied to
                  this in the first place :) You can make things easier for potential
                  helpers by choosing the language and the mode you want, making a draft,
                  and then asking if it is correct. As the people on Elfling suggested,
                  you can use the online transcriber to see how the word is written in
                  some modes (according to the program's opinion).

                  I have no idea what language and mode you should use. It seems to be
                  mostly a matter of personal preference, so it would be strange for
                  someone like me to choose for you. Some spellings might make the
                  inscription more modern and Mannish (and perhaps more appropriate "in
                  these after-days", as Legolas might put it), while other would make it
                  more ancient and Elvish (and perhaps more appealing to you).

                  > I dont want to do it wrong and then get a tattoo that means
                  > something different.

                  Sounds like a good reason for learning to read the tengwar.

                  Harri Perälä
                • Harri Perälä
                  ... Just a clarification: I haven t been reading all the recent messages carefully, and I only now realized that you started a thread with the subject Hope
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 8, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Harri Perälä wrote:
                    > Samantha Scrivani wrote:
                    >>I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel
                    >>in Sindarin and Quenya.
                    > Such requests are sometimes answered here.

                    Just a clarification: I haven't been reading all the recent messages
                    carefully, and I only now realized that you started a thread with the
                    subject "Hope" just a few days ago. In that thread, your request was
                    interpreted so that you want the English word transcribed. In case you
                    never saw those messages, please see the replies in the group archives.

                    Apologies to everyone for any extra confusion.

                    Harri Perälä
                  • calwen76
                    ... messages carefully, and I only now realized that you started a thread with the subject Hope just a few days ago. In that thread, your request was
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 8, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...>
                      wrote:
                      > Harri Perälä wrote:
                      > > Samantha Scrivani wrote:
                      > >>I was wondering if you know someone who could write out estel
                      > >>in Sindarin and Quenya.
                      > > Such requests are sometimes answered here.
                      >
                      > Just a clarification: I haven't been reading all the recent
                      messages carefully, and I only now realized that you started a thread
                      with the subject "Hope" just a few days ago. In that thread, your
                      request was interpreted so that you want the English word
                      transcribed. In case you never saw those messages, please see the
                      replies in the group archives.
                      >
                      > Apologies to everyone for any extra confusion.
                      >
                      > Harri Perälä

                      She didn't specify it before, having stated only that she wanted
                      _hope_ in elven... :-/ So it was probably my mistake...

                      Lucy
                    • Gregson Vaux
                      Lucy, Sorry to take so long in getting back to you but I have been frightfully busy. Thanks for taking the time to look over my transcription. About the long
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 18, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Lucy,

                        Sorry to take so long in getting back to you but I have been
                        frightfully busy. Thanks for taking the time to look over my
                        transcription. About the long carrier, I use a long carrier for long
                        vowels and a short carrier for short vowels. In the word 'to', correct
                        me if I am wrong, but that vowel is a long vowel. If it were short, it
                        would be the vowel in the word 'put'.

                        About double vowels, they can be represented with a long carrier or
                        with two tehtar. I used both but it would probably be best to be
                        consistent. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Myself I would tend
                        towards using two tehtar.

                        The reason that I did not put the tilda ( or as you called it the
                        "wave") inside the lambe is that I do not know how using a keyboard.
                        There are all sorts of symbols that I do not know how to access. The
                        documentation for the Annatar font mentions an alt code but I cannot
                        make it work. I can put a tilda below the lambe by using the shift key
                        so that is what I was forced to do. HELP! can someone tell me how to
                        use the alt codes?

                        You said that I wrote 'peace' as 'peaae'. I thought that the tengwa
                        that looks like a c (is it called luva?) has an s sound. Chris McKay
                        says that luva is often used to represent the Latin latter 'c'.

                        Thanks for catching that I missed the word 'sky' in my transcription.
                        I will fix it when I get the time. Also when I get the time, I will
                        tell the sad story behind the poem.

                        BTW my tengwar ring is being made. I looked at three companies but
                        only DeSignet was able to make it even close to my specifications'
                        sadly, they were also the most expensive. I don't even want to say
                        what the ring cost but it is well worth it. When I get it, I will post
                        a picture to this group.

                        Gregson

                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've read the Tengwar text and have the following 'notes':
                        >
                        > beside Mach's comments conc. the usage of yanta and anna, I don't
                        > know why are you using a long carrier for short vowels... I can
                        > understand it in the words *I, beauty, breeze (though you seem to be
                        > inconsistent concerning doubled vowels in breeze/freeze);
                        > me, be*.
                        >
                        > I don't understand the usage of the long carrier in words *to, ocean*.
                        >
                        > The inconsistency seems to be present in all your transcription:
                        >
                        > cp. _beauty_ r. 3 x _beauty_ r. 6
                        > cp. _a_ r. 6 x _a_ r. 23
                        > cp. _trees_, _breeze_ r. 10 x _knees_ r. 11 x _freeze_ r. 13 x _see_
                        > r. 24
                        > cp. _no_ r. 12 x _no_ rs. 14, 16
                        >
                        > Then I would write the wave for double L inside lambe, not below, but
                        > it just my opinion.
                        >
                        > Further, the word _peace_ (rs. 8, 21) reads _peaae_.
                        >
                        > Row 14 lacks the word _sky_.
                        >
                        > I would write the word _voices_ (r. 7) rather as: ampa, anna with O-
                        > tehta, silme, silme nuquerna with an accute accent, since the E is
                        > pronounced, not silent.
                        >
                        > That's it. BTW, good job, Gregson.
                        >
                        > Lucy
                      • calwen76
                        ... Hey Gregson, just a short note: I am not a native speaker so I just trust my ears: I would compare the short u in to to a long u in too . That is
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 19, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
                          > In the word 'to', correct
                          > me if I am wrong, but that vowel is a long vowel. If it were short,
                          > it would be the vowel in the word 'put'.

                          Hey Gregson,

                          just a short note: I am not a native speaker so I just trust my ears:
                          I would compare the short "u" in "to" to a long "u" in "too". That is
                          the difference for me -- but as I said and please, don't beat me - I
                          may be wrong.

                          Lucy
                        • j_mach_wust
                          ... The only length distinction found in written English as well as in the attested orthographic English modes is the one in _e_ and _o_, as in _red, lot_ vs.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 19, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
                            >
                            > About the long carrier, I use a long carrier for long
                            > vowels and a short carrier for short vowels. In the word 'to',
                            > correct me if I am wrong, but that vowel is a long vowel. If it were
                            > short, it would be the vowel in the word 'put'.

                            The only length distinction found in written English as well as in the
                            attested orthographic English modes is the one in _e_ and _o_, as in
                            _red, lot_ vs. _reed, loot_.

                            What you describe is a feature of spoken English, which is attested in
                            the phonemic English modes, but not in the orthographic ones.

                            Many creators of secondary tengwar modes mix orthographic and phonemic
                            features deliberately. But still this doesn't make it acceptable.

                            > The reason that I did not put the tilda

                            It's "tilde".

                            > You said that I wrote 'peace' as 'peaae'. I thought that the tengwa
                            > that looks like a c (is it called luva?) has an s sound. Chris McKay
                            > says that luva is often used to represent the Latin latter 'c'.

                            This is a secondary invention. In the attested writings, it's always
                            used as a vowel sign. In the orthographic English modes specifically,
                            it's attested for the second element of the digraph _ea_, and I guess
                            it's a safe hypothesis that it could be used in _oa_ as well.

                            ---------------------------
                            j. 'mach' wust
                            http://machhezan.tripod.com
                            ---------------------------
                          • Gregson Vaux
                            I am beginning to think that I have misunderstood what is meant by long and short vowels. Are we talking about a sound difference or a spelling difference?
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 19, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am beginning to think that I have misunderstood what is meant by
                              long and short vowels. Are we talking about a sound difference or a
                              spelling difference? When I was young, I learned that the word "pick"
                              had a short I while the word "pike" had a long I. Long and short
                              described different phonemes. When we talk about long and short vowels
                              going with long and short carriers, are we talking about spelling
                              differences? If this is the case, it describes my source of confusion.

                              BTW, I would say that the words 'to' and 'too' have the same sound and
                              are both long. But if we are talking about spelling, then I can see
                              that we could say that one is short and the other long.

                              Gregson



                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
                              > > In the word 'to', correct
                              > > me if I am wrong, but that vowel is a long vowel. If it were short,
                              > > it would be the vowel in the word 'put'.
                              >
                              > Hey Gregson,
                              >
                              > just a short note: I am not a native speaker so I just trust my ears:
                              > I would compare the short "u" in "to" to a long "u" in "too". That is
                              > the difference for me -- but as I said and please, don't beat me - I
                              > may be wrong.
                              >
                              > Lucy
                            • j_mach_wust
                              ... In the attested orthographic modes, it s about spelling differences. In the attested phonemic modes, it s about pronunciation differences. Note that in the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 20, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I am beginning to think that I have misunderstood what is meant by
                                > long and short vowels. Are we talking about a sound difference or a
                                > spelling difference? When I was young, I learned that the word
                                > "pick" had a short I while the word "pike" had a long I. Long and
                                > short described different phonemes. When we talk about long and
                                > short vowels going with long and short carriers, are we talking
                                > about spelling differences? If this is the case, it describes my
                                > source of confusion.

                                In the attested orthographic modes, it's about spelling differences.
                                In the attested phonemic modes, it's about pronunciation differences.

                                Note that in the attested phonemic modes, Tolkien, a great linguist,
                                didn't employd the popular and traditional distinction between "short"
                                and "long" vowels you have learned which is kind of inbetween spelling
                                differences and pronunciation differences, but a distinction between
                                long and short vowels that is only based on pronunciation. In the
                                attested phonemic tengwar modes, the long vowel that corresponds to
                                the short vowel of _pick_ is the vowel of _peak_ and the vowel of
                                _pike_ is not long but a diphthong: a + i.

                                Since you're using a secondary, post-Tolkien mode, you don't need to
                                care about what Tolkien did, of course, unless you aim to write in a
                                way that would be acceptable for the community of those who care for
                                Tolkien's tengwar samples.

                                ---------------------------
                                j. 'mach' wust
                                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                ---------------------------
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.