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[elfscript] New file added : is it correct?

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  • fradeve virgilio
    Hi! I ve just added a new file (file s name: SindBranEly ). It s an attempt, sketch, for the Sindarin phrase: _Aa I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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      Hi!



      I've just added a new file (file's name: "SindBranEly"). It's an attempt,
      sketch, for the Sindarin phrase:



      _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en ely_



      Is it completely correct?



      Meneg suilaid





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave
      ... Well, as far as the spelling is concerned, and seeing that you are clearly using the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand, I would just have one remark: the m in
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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        fradeve virgilio wrote:

        > Hi!
        >
        > I've just added a new file (file's name: "SindBranEly"). It's an attempt,
        > sketch, for the Sindarin phrase:
        >
        > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en ely_
        >
        > Is it completely correct?
        >
        > Meneg suilaid
        >
        Well, as far as the spelling is concerned, and seeing that you are
        clearly using the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand, I would just have one
        remark: the "m" in _im_ should rather be spelled with vala (instead of óre).

        Actually, after taking a second look, I'd like to ask you about the
        spelling of _llie_: isn't there an "i" (short carrier) missing before
        the "e"? And you wrote something that (to me) looks like an O-curl above
        yanta: why? Neither seems that soundto be called for here, nor would
        this tehta be used in a full mode such as this.

        Ah yes, the óre in _en_ looks a bit like tinco (the stem should be
        reduced), but this may just be your calligraphic style? :)

        Other than that, it looks fine to me!

        Hísilómë




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dave
        ... Hi, one more small thing occurred to me: I m not sure whether i should be spelled with a long or a short carrier, especially when standing alone or when
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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          fradeve virgilio wrote:

          > Hi!
          >
          > I've just added a new file (file's name: "SindBranEly"). It's an attempt,
          > sketch, for the Sindarin phrase:
          >
          > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en ely_
          >
          > Is it completely correct?
          >
          > Meneg suilaid
          >
          Hi,

          one more small thing occurred to me: I'm not sure whether "i" should be
          spelled with a long or a short carrier, especially when standing alone
          or when it is not the initial sound of a world. I have always had
          trouble discerning long/short carriers for "i" in the two best-known
          examples of the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand from Tolkien himself, the
          Tengwar text for "A Elbereth" (in "Pictures") and the Gate of Moria
          inscription (LotR).

          In "A Elbereth", the only "i" spelled with a long carrier seems to be
          the word-initial one in _Imladris_ (Aerlinn in Edhil o Imladris). Long
          "i" is spelled with short carrier plus acute accent.

          In the Doors of Durin inscription (as published in Fellowship), I'm not
          sure whether for example the "i" in _minno_ is to be considered a long
          or a short carrier? What does it look like to you? Anyway, in this
          sample, again, the only clear-cut occurence of a long carrier seems to
          me to be the "i" in _Im (Narvi)_, word-initial again. As for the other
          "i" ("i" alone or word-medial/-final), I would tend to think they're
          short carriers, sometimes with a dot on top (_Moria_, _i_, _thiw_ etc.),
          and sometimes without (_Narvi_, _Durin_), without any discernible
          pattern to explain when and when not to use the dot. It clearly has
          nothing to do with length here (which would probably be marked with an
          accent as in "A Elbereth").

          Looking at your inscription, I'm not quite sure whether the article _i_
          and the "i" as for example in _dregi_ or _thilio_ are meant to represent
          distinct letters (long vs. short) or look different for reasons of
          style. _IF_ you intended to use a long carrier for the article _i_, I'd
          probably suggest using a short one (as Tolkien seems to do in the Gate
          of Moria inscription, but as I've said I find it hard to be sure which
          are long and which short in that one:)).
          All in all, I'd use only short carriers here, since there's no
          word-initial "i" (article/pronoun _i_ doesn't count).

          Hísilómë






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • calwen76
          ... en ely_ ... This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn t deserve to be expressed by any of prof. Tolkien s writing systems. Apart from calling
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
            wrote:
            > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon
            en ely_
            >
            > Is it completely correct?

            This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn't deserve to be
            expressed by any of prof. Tolkien's writing systems. Apart from
            calling it Sindarin.

            Lucy
          • Dave
            ... Oops, that s a bit harsh, isn t it? I don t want to get into that (by its nature inconclusive) discussion about what is Sindarin and what isn t (clearly,
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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              calwen76 wrote:

              >
              > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
              > wrote:
              > > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon
              > en ely_
              > >
              > > Is it completely correct?
              >
              > This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn't deserve to be
              > expressed by any of prof. Tolkien's writing systems. Apart from
              > calling it Sindarin.
              >
              > Lucy
              >
              Oops, that's a bit harsh, isn't it? I don't want to get into that (by
              its nature inconclusive) discussion about what is Sindarin and what
              isn't (clearly, if you take a very strict approach, ONLY what Tolkien
              himself wrote IS REALLY Sindarin, and any other composition, no matter
              how "standardized" or "Tolkien-inspired" a version of "reconstructed"
              Sindarin it's based on, has to be considered "not authentic"----there,
              now I HAVE spoken my mind), and neither do I want to defend what you
              call a "word grist" as "good" Sindarin by any standard this group would
              likely subscribe to, BUT the author of that mail was just asking about
              the SPELLING, and there he/she (?) did a reasonably good job. I mean,
              you could spell (or at least try to) spell pretty much anything with
              Tengwar script, and it can be fun and enlightening to do so. (Try
              transcribing Chinese with Tengwar for example :).)

              Anyway, I don't think "deserve(s)" has anything to do with it. What are
              we, defending the Holy Grail? Lighten up :).

              Hísilómë



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • calwen76
              ... ... brannon ... to be ... (by ... Tolkien ... matter ... of reconstructed ... there, ... you ... would ... about ... mean, ... with ...
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
                > calwen76 wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio"
                <fradeve11@v...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie
                brannon
                > > en ely_
                > > >
                > > > Is it completely correct?
                > >
                > > This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn't deserve
                to be
                > > expressed by any of prof. Tolkien's writing systems. Apart from
                > > calling it Sindarin.
                > >
                > > Lucy
                > >
                > Oops, that's a bit harsh, isn't it? I don't want to get into that
                (by
                > its nature inconclusive) discussion about what is Sindarin and what
                > isn't (clearly, if you take a very strict approach, ONLY what
                Tolkien
                > himself wrote IS REALLY Sindarin, and any other composition, no
                matter
                > how "standardized" or "Tolkien-inspired" a version
                of "reconstructed"
                > Sindarin it's based on, has to be considered "not authentic"----
                there,
                > now I HAVE spoken my mind), and neither do I want to defend what
                you
                > call a "word grist" as "good" Sindarin by any standard this group
                would
                > likely subscribe to, BUT the author of that mail was just asking
                about
                > the SPELLING, and there he/she (?) did a reasonably good job. I
                mean,
                > you could spell (or at least try to) spell pretty much anything
                with
                > Tengwar script, and it can be fun and enlightening to do so. (Try
                > transcribing Chinese with Tengwar for example :).)
                >
                > Anyway, I don't think "deserve(s)" has anything to do with it. What
                are
                > we, defending the Holy Grail? Lighten up :).
                >
                > Hísilómë

                I hope you're kiding. Grelvish has no rules, it is just a accidental
                mix of nonsence sound clusters and it is denounced by almost all non-
                ignorant Tolkien languages fans, students and scholars all over the
                world. And I was serious by saying this crap (Grelvish) doesn't
                deserve a word of defense in either elfling or elfscript.

                I'm not saying it is not your or anybody's right to express
                your/his/her opinion but it seems to me that you know nothing much
                about Tolkien's languages if you dare to state such a thing.

                Lucy
              • Dave
                ... [Hm. Did you even read (I mean really READ) my reply to your mail?] ... [I think I clearly stated that I did NOT wish to defend Grelvish in any way. I am
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                  calwen76 wrote:

                  >
                  > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
                  > > calwen76 wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio"
                  > <fradeve11@v...>> wrote:

                  > > > > _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie
                  > brannon en ely_
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Is it completely correct?
                  > > >
                  > > > This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn't deserve
                  > to be expressed by any of prof. Tolkien's writing systems. Apart from
                  > > > calling it Sindarin.
                  > > >
                  > > > Lucy
                  > > >
                  > > Oops, that's a bit harsh, isn't it? I don't want to get into that
                  > (by its nature inconclusive) discussion about what is Sindarin and what
                  > > isn't (clearly, if you take a very strict approach, ONLY what
                  > Tolkien himself wrote IS REALLY Sindarin, and any other composition, no
                  > matter how "standardized" or "Tolkien-inspired" a version
                  > of "reconstructed" Sindarin it's based on, has to be considered "not
                  > authentic"----
                  > there, now I HAVE spoken my mind), and neither do I want to defend what
                  > you call a "word grist" as "good" Sindarin by any standard this group
                  > would likely subscribe to, BUT the author of that mail was just asking
                  > about the SPELLING, and there he/she (?) did a reasonably good job. I
                  > mean, you could spell (or at least try to) spell pretty much anything
                  > with Tengwar script, and it can be fun and enlightening to do so. (Try
                  > > transcribing Chinese with Tengwar for example :).)
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, I don't think "deserve(s)" has anything to do with it. What
                  > are we, defending the Holy Grail? Lighten up :).
                  > >
                  > > Hísilómë

                  [Hm. Did you even read (I mean really READ) my reply to your mail?]

                  >
                  > I hope you're kiding. Grelvish has no rules, it is just a accidental
                  > mix of nonsence sound clusters and it is denounced by almost all non-
                  > ignorant Tolkien languages fans, students and scholars all over the
                  > world. And I was serious by saying this crap (Grelvish) doesn't
                  > deserve a word of defense in either elfling or elfscript.

                  [I think I clearly stated that I did NOT wish to defend "Grelvish" in
                  any way. I am well aware that "Grelvish" doesn't have much to do with
                  "Sindarin". What I DID defend was the _spelling_ in that calligraphy,
                  which looked by and large ok. I was NOT concerned with the content of
                  the text (if you read my first mail on this topic, you will have noticed
                  that I started by saying "as far as the spelling is concerned").]

                  >
                  > I'm not saying it is not your or anybody's right to express
                  > your/his/her opinion but it seems to me that you know nothing much
                  > about Tolkien's languages if you dare to state such a thing.

                  [Again, what exactly did I "state"? Just that anybody certainly has the
                  right to transcribe any text they like into Tengwar--and if they want to
                  have an opinion on the result, who should they ask if not the people in
                  this group? Whether the text itself is Sindarin of not, is an entirely
                  different matter, and just for the record: I am not fond of "Grelvish"
                  myself, and of course you are right that this text is NOT something
                  Tolkien would have recognized as his invented language. Personally, I am
                  studying Tolkien's Quenya and Sindarin because it allows one an even
                  keener appreciation of his entire secondary world with all its myths and
                  stories, and because I am generally interested in languages, invented or
                  "real". Therefore, I have no interest whatsoever in "Grelvish" or any
                  other language constructs that are only remotely based on Tolkien's ideas.

                  Finally, on a more general note, you are right that everybody has the
                  right to express an opinion in this forum, and I think it would be nice
                  to do so courteous manner. No need for an expression like "crap", I
                  think :).]

                  Hísilómë




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • calwen76
                  ... Yes. I did. Carefully. It is maybe but my opinion nevertheless this forum concerns Tolkien s writing systems that are inseparable from Tolkien s
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
                    > [Hm. Did you even read (I mean really READ) my reply to your mail?]

                    Yes. I did. Carefully. It is maybe but my opinion nevertheless this
                    forum concerns Tolkien's writing systems that are inseparable from
                    Tolkien's art(ificial) languages. Tolkien used to write English with
                    Tengwar and Tengwar can be adopted by many languages - I think that
                    to adopt Chinese to Tengwar (or vice versa) would be really a hard
                    work.

                    My point is that I don't dare to even look on a text that is written
                    in Grelvish since I really do deprecate it because I think it's a
                    mockery of Tolkien's work. And I do think it's a crap. And I much
                    appreciate Tolkien's work. That's why I do defend it so hard.

                    It's nothing against 'fradeve virgilio' who maybe even doesn't know
                    that the sentence is Grelvish. But if he/she does know, then let
                    he/she turn to Grelvish company to help him/her with the
                    transcription since this group concerns completely different stuff:
                    Grelvish was made and it looks like a mixture Sindarin and Quenya
                    together with many inexplicable changes and editions, yielding
                    something that is by many seen as a language, but a closer look shows
                    it is not so. I guess the Grey company have maybe adjusted the
                    writing systems as well to their work: because Tolkein's writing
                    systems were made for (real) languages as such, for languages that
                    have specific features and have been changing over the centuries
                    (real languages), have been made with love to linguistics and words
                    (Tolkein's ones). This is not the case of Grelvish, which is a
                    nonsense mish-mash of Tolkien's work - how great, huh? Can you not
                    see? :-( I could make such a language in two hours from let's say
                    English and proclaim it as a variant of English:

                    Wwe em Luciel nad wil lieke uciter bugus.

                    Well, this is exactly what is Grelvish comparing to Tolkien's
                    languages --- does this "sentense" look like English? Would you even
                    be able to say what it is supposed to mean? Would you dare to try to
                    analyze the Tengwar transcription of it if I would have made it and
                    would have asked you to check it? What rules would you follow?

                    Lucy
                  • j_mach_wust
                    ... There are indeed many Tengwar texts where it s difficult to discern long and short carriers (another example is the Treebeard fragment, DTS 24). However,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                      'Hísilómë' Dave wrote:

                      > one more small thing occurred to me: I'm not sure whether "i" should
                      > be spelled with a long or a short carrier, especially when standing
                      > alone or when it is not the initial sound of a world. I have always
                      > had trouble discerning long/short carriers for "i" in the two
                      > best-known examples of the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand from Tolkien
                      > himself, the Tengwar text for "A Elbereth" (in "Pictures") and the
                      > Gate of Moria inscription (LotR).

                      There are indeed many Tengwar texts where it's difficult to discern
                      long and short carriers (another example is the Treebeard fragment,
                      DTS 24). However, there are also other texts that have a very marked
                      distinction between the two, e.g. the King's Letters or the Lay of
                      Leithian fragment (DTS 23). Maybe the texts that don't distinguish
                      them clearly don't do this because these modes don't require that
                      distinction at all?

                      > In "A Elbereth", the only "i" spelled with a long carrier seems to
                      > be the word-initial one in _Imladris_ (Aerlinn in Edhil o Imladris).

                      I disagree. This letter is different from all other long carriers and
                      looks rather like a capitalized short carrier.

                      > In the Doors of Durin inscription (as published in Fellowship), I'm
                      > not sure whether for example the "i" in _minno_ is to be considered
                      > a long or a short carrier? What does it look like to you? Anyway, in
                      > this sample, again, the only clear-cut occurence of a long carrier
                      > seems to me to be the "i" in _Im (Narvi)_, word-initial again.

                      I'd say it the other way round: The only clear-cut occurences of short
                      carriers are in the words _Durin_ and _Moria_.

                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
                    • Dave
                      ... [Sure, why not?] ... [Well, without any indications how to pronounce it, I guess I would try to stick to an orthographical mode of spelling. Could be an
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                        calwen76 wrote:

                        >
                        > Wwe em Luciel nad wil lieke uciter bugus.
                        >
                        > Would you dare to try to
                        > analyze the Tengwar transcription of it if I would have made it and
                        > would have asked you to check it?

                        [Sure, why not?]

                        > What rules would you follow?

                        [Well, without any indications how to pronounce it, I guess I would try
                        to stick to an orthographical mode of spelling. Could be an interesting
                        challenge, actually :).]

                        >
                        > Lucy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • calwen76
                        ... and ... try to stick to an orthographical mode of spelling. Could be an interesting challenge, actually :).] Why doesn t that suprise me... No comment :)
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Dave <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
                          > calwen76 wrote:
                          > > Wwe em Luciel nad wil lieke uciter bugus.
                          > >
                          > > Would you dare to try to
                          > > analyze the Tengwar transcription of it if I would have made it
                          and
                          > > would have asked you to check it?
                          >
                          > [Sure, why not?]
                          >
                          > > What rules would you follow?
                          >
                          > [Well, without any indications how to pronounce it, I guess I would
                          try to stick to an orthographical mode of spelling. Could be an
                          interesting challenge, actually :).]

                          Why doesn't that suprise me... No comment :)
                        • Dave
                          j_mach_wust wrote: ... There are indeed many Tengwar texts where it s difficult to discern long and short carriers (another example is the Treebeard
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                            j_mach_wust wrote:
                            <>
                            'Hísilómë' Dave wrote:

                            > one more small thing occurred to me: I'm not sure whether "i" should
                            > be spelled with a long or a short carrier, especially when standing
                            > alone or when it is not the initial sound of a world. I have always
                            > had trouble discerning long/short carriers for "i" in the two
                            > best-known examples of the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand from Tolkien
                            > himself, the Tengwar text for "A Elbereth" (in "Pictures") and the
                            > Gate of Moria inscription (LotR).

                            There are indeed many Tengwar texts where it's difficult to discern
                            long and short carriers (another example is the Treebeard fragment,
                            DTS 24). However, there are also other texts that have a very marked
                            distinction between the two, e.g. the King's Letters or the Lay of
                            Leithian fragment (DTS 23). Maybe the texts that don't distinguish
                            them clearly don't do this because these modes don't require that
                            distinction at all?

                            [Maybe! Just as with those dots on top that I mentioned that seem to be
                            used (or not) without any clearly discernible pattern--it doesn't really
                            make a difference I think, since with or without the dot all these
                            carriers represent (short) "i".]

                            > In "A Elbereth", the only "i" spelled with a long carrier seems to
                            > be the word-initial one in _Imladris_ (Aerlinn in Edhil o Imladris).

                            I disagree. This letter is different from all other long carriers and
                            looks rather like a capitalized short carrier.

                            [Well, as I said, it _is_ hard to be sure! Are there many incidences of
                            a "capitalized short carrier"? Come to think of it, long carriers
                            usually seem to be extended _downwards_, not upwards, so this would
                            certainly give weight to your argument :).]
                            <>
                            > In the Doors of Durin inscription (as published in Fellowship), I'm
                            > not sure whether for example the "i" in _minno_ is to be considered
                            > a long or a short carrier? What does it look like to you? Anyway, in
                            > this sample, again, the only clear-cut occurence of a long carrier
                            > seems to me to be the "i" in _Im (Narvi)_, word-initial again.

                            I'd say it the other way round: The only clear-cut occurences of short
                            carriers are in the words _Durin_ and _Moria_.

                            [Don't know, this really seems to be a matter of interpretation. I'm
                            looking at the second hardcover edition by George Allen & Unwin, p.319,
                            and to me the "i" in, say, _Celebrimbor_ or _Eregion_ also look kind of
                            short to me, especially when compared with the "i" occurrences in _i
                            thiw hin_. To close to call I guess :). In some earlier drafts that are
                            reproduced in AI, e.g. nos 150 and 151, all carriers seem to be
                            distinctly short. As you said, it doesn't seem to make a big difference
                            in this mode.
                            BTW, there are some "strange" spellings in these earlier drafts, so
                            _Moria_ seems to have a malta for "m", which is obviously inconsistent
                            with the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand as we know it (malta = double "m")
                            and was in the LotR version "emended" to vala. Also, _thiw_ is spelled
                            with an initial númen in 150, and an ando with an over-bar (tilde) in
                            151, then there is "curly" thing above the anna in _Moria_, and so on.
                            This is probably some earlier conceptual stage for this mode?]
                            <>
                            Hísilómë



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • j_mach_wust
                            ... We also find many capitalizations in other Tolkien s tengwar texts. There s another sample of a capitalized short carrier in DTS 18 (third verse, third
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                              'Hísilómë' Dave wrote:

                              > j_mach_wust wrote:
                              >
                              >> 'Hísilómë' Dave wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> In "A Elbereth", the only "i" spelled with a long
                              >>> carrier seems to be the word-initial one in _Imladris_
                              >>> (Aerlinn in Edhil o Imladris).
                              >>
                              >> I disagree. This letter is different from all other long
                              >> carriers and looks rather like a capitalized short
                              >> carrier.
                              >
                              > Well, as I said, it _is_ hard to be sure! Are there many
                              > incidences of a "capitalized short carrier"? Come to think
                              > of it, long carriers usually seem to be extended
                              > _downwards_, not upwards, so this would certainly give
                              > weight to your argument :).

                              We also find many "capitalizations" in other Tolkien's tengwar texts.
                              There's another sample of a "capitalized" short carrier in DTS 18
                              (third verse, third line) (the same sample shows even a "capitalized"
                              long carrier: fifth verse, first word).

                              >>> In the Doors of Durin inscription (as published in
                              >>> Fellowship), I'm not sure whether for example the "i" in
                              >>> _minno_ is to be considered a long or a short carrier?
                              >>> What does it look like to you? Anyway, in this sample,
                              >>> again, the only clear-cut occurence of a long carrier
                              >>> seems to me to be the "i" in _Im (Narvi)_, word-initial
                              >>> again.
                              >>
                              >> I'd say it the other way round: The only clear-cut
                              >> occurences of short carriers are in the words _Durin_ and
                              >> _Moria_.
                              >
                              > Don't know, this really seems to be a matter of
                              > interpretation. I'm looking at the second hardcover
                              > edition by George Allen & Unwin, p.319, and to me the "i"
                              > in, say, _Celebrimbor_ or _Eregion_ also look kind of
                              > short to me, especially when compared with the "i"
                              > occurrences in _i thiw hin_. To close to call I guess :).
                              > In some earlier drafts that are reproduced in AI, e.g. nos
                              > 150 and 151, all carriers seem to be distinctly short. As
                              > you said, it doesn't seem to make a big difference in this
                              > mode.

                              Wait a minute, isn't DTS 8 not drawn by J. R. R. Tolkien at all, but a
                              copy made of DTS 32 by some graphic? I think this is told in the
                              Artist & Illustrator, but I have only made a copy of page 158 and
                              brought the book back to the library.

                              > BTW, there are some "strange" spellings in these earlier
                              > drafts, so _Moria_ seems to have a malta for "m", which is
                              > obviously inconsistent with the Sindarin Mode of Beleriand
                              > as we know it (malta = double "m") and was in the LotR
                              > version "emended" to vala. Also, _thiw_ is spelled with an
                              > initial númen in 150, and an ando with an over-bar (tilde)
                              > in 151, then there is "curly" thing above the anna in
                              > _Moria_, and so on. This is probably some earlier
                              > conceptual stage for this mode?

                              I think this isn't a reflection of a earlier conceptual stage of this
                              mode, but of a earlier conceptual stage of the language (have a look
                              at the bottom of DTS 29 :-). Well, there is actually one earlier
                              feature in the mode, too: The andotyelle seems to be used not only for
                              long nasal consonants (nn, mm), but also for the prenasalized voiced
                              stops (nd, mb), see 'Celebrimbor, ndíw'.

                              ---------------------------
                              j. 'mach' wust
                              http://machhezan.tripod.com
                              ---------------------------
                            • Dave
                              ... We also find many capitalizations in other Tolkien s tengwar texts. There s another sample of a capitalized short carrier in DTS 18 (third verse, third
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                <>> j_mach_wust wrote:
                                >
                                >> 'Hísilómë' Dave wrote:

                                > Are there many
                                > incidences of a "capitalized short carrier"? Come to think
                                > of it, long carriers usually seem to be extended
                                > _downwards_, not upwards, so this would certainly give
                                > weight to your argument :).

                                We also find many "capitalizations" in other Tolkien's tengwar texts.
                                There's another sample of a "capitalized" short carrier in DTS 18
                                (third verse, third line) (the same sample shows even a "capitalized"
                                long carrier: fifth verse, first word).

                                [Right, so a "capitalized" carrier would have an upwardly extended stem
                                and a curl to the left at the bottom, and thus generally look a bit like
                                a "J"--BTW, did you come up with the term? The "capitalization" does not
                                seem to serve any special function, does it?]

                                >>> In the Doors of Durin inscription (as published in
                                >>> Fellowship), I'm not sure whether for example the "i" in
                                >>> _minno_ is to be considered a long or a short carrier?
                                >>> What does it look like to you? Anyway, in this sample,
                                >>> again, the only clear-cut occurence of a long carrier
                                >>> seems to me to be the "i" in _Im (Narvi)_, word-initial
                                >>> again.
                                >>
                                >> I'd say it the other way round: The only clear-cut
                                >> occurences of short carriers are in the words _Durin_ and
                                >> _Moria_.
                                >
                                > Don't know, this really seems to be a matter of
                                > interpretation. I'm looking at the second hardcover
                                > edition by George Allen & Unwin, p.319, and to me the "i"
                                > in, say, _Celebrimbor_ or _Eregion_ also look kind of
                                > short to me, especially when compared with the "i"
                                > occurrences in _i thiw hin_. To close to call I guess :).
                                > In some earlier drafts that are reproduced in AI, e.g. nos
                                > 150 and 151, all carriers seem to be distinctly short. As
                                > you said, it doesn't seem to make a big difference in this
                                > mode.

                                Wait a minute, isn't DTS 8 not drawn by J. R. R. Tolkien at all, but a
                                copy made of DTS 32 by some graphic? I think this is told in the
                                Artist & Illustrator, but I have only made a copy of page 158 and
                                brought the book back to the library.

                                [You are, as usual, right :). On page 161 of my edition of AI, it says
                                that "The picture of the Doors of Durin [154] reproduced in "The Lord of
                                the Rings" was made by a blockmaker's copyist after Tolkien's final
                                design [153]." I have to say, though, that in [153], as opposed to
                                [154], I feel that _all_ the carriers clearly look short, and it would
                                thus seem that the "ambiguity" in this sample was only introduced by the
                                copyist, who in all likelihood was not aware of the subtleties of
                                Tolkien's script.]

                                > BTW, there are some "strange" spellings in these earlier
                                > drafts (...) This is probably some earlier
                                > conceptual stage for this mode?

                                I think this isn't a reflection of a earlier conceptual stage of this
                                mode, but of a earlier conceptual stage of the language (have a look
                                at the bottom of DTS 29 :-).

                                [Yes, about that: I've never been able to clearly decipher Tolkien's
                                writing here, specifically what follows after the opening "This is...".
                                Can you read it? "This is an (?) use of the elvish character (?)
                                spelling" (or maybe it's "This is a-something-use, the "n" belonging to
                                the word following the article "a"). At first I thought maybe
                                "erroneous" use, but the letters really to me look more like a-r-e-h(or
                                l-i?)-a (?)(?), and that obviously doesn't make much sense. Maybe
                                "earlier use"? But where we should see "e", I only see "a", and it
                                generally doesn't seem to fit. Guess I'm a lousy reader of Tolkien's
                                handwriting. Any ideas? BTW, I only thought it might be an "earlier
                                stage of this _mode_" because "spelling" is being mentioned...]

                                Well, there is actually one earlier
                                feature in the mode, too: The andotyelle seems to be used not only for
                                long nasal consonants (nn, mm), but also for the prenasalized voiced
                                stops (nd, mb), see 'Celebrimbor, ndíw'.

                                [Right, the latter use for nasalized voiced stops would correspond to
                                the use in the Classical Quenya Mode. I'd say it's an earlier stage in
                                both the language and the spelling :)--though the two are, of course,
                                not _necessarily_ closely connected.]

                                Hísilómë



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                              • Fradeve Virgilio
                                ... Hi to all, Replying to Calwen76: The “Grelvish” text that I’m translating in tengwar is not a my creation. I’m only doing a favour to my
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 30, 2004
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                                  >--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                                  >wrote:
                                  >> _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon
                                  >en ely_
                                  >>
                                  >> Is it completely correct?

                                  >This is Grelvish and this ridiculous word grist doesn't deserve to be
                                  >expressed by any of prof. Tolkien's writing systems. Apart from
                                  >calling it Sindarin.
                                  >
                                  >Lucy

                                  Hi to all,

                                  Replying to Calwen76:
                                  The “Grelvish” text that I’m translating in tengwar is not a my creation.
                                  I’m only
                                  doing a favour to my girlfriend, that needs help with the tengwar
                                  transcription.
                                  I’ve studied Quenya, not Sindarin, so I don’t know exactly in which way the
                                  phrase

                                  _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en ely_

                                  must be representative of Grelvish or other depreciable languages.

                                  So, starting from my personal point of view, I will more appreciate someone
                                  who
                                  will underlines where and what are the errors, than a simply and corrosive
                                  verdict.
                                  Probably my girlfriend will think right there.

                                  So, now we can discuss about the tengwar side of the phrase: I think that an
                                  elvish word of
                                  thank is better than one simply: _Hantanyel!_ to Dave for his comment.
                                  Answering to his questions:

                                  - yes, I’ve forgotten an _i_ in _llie_!
                                  - And, it can seems stupid, the mark on the yanta that looks like an
                                  o-curl is only a
                                  decoration to hide a tragic error, a stain of ink! Really, this work is only
                                  a scratch,
                                  so I’ve thought that this particular mark can be interpreted simply like a
                                  decoration (also
                                  because who really knows the Beleriand Full Mode knows that this mark can’t
                                  be used. So,
                                  it must be intended like this: each sign that isn’t used in the Beleriand
                                  Mode but appears
                                  in the scratch must be interpreted like a decoration mark! But, I repeat,
                                  this mark is the
                                  consequence of an error! In the definitive version I will take care to
                                  cancel this kind of
                                  mistakes!).
                                  - last but not least, the óre in _en_ is my personal calligraphic
                                  style.

                                  The question of the _i_ looks more complicated. Like I’ve said, I don’t know
                                  Sindarin, so the
                                  question of peculiar accentuation of the word is a problem for me. I will
                                  draw long or short
                                  carriers everywhere you will indicated me.
                                  So, on this topic, I ask you to be more clear!

                                  Thanks and regards,

                                  Fradeve virgilio


                                  Á carë tittë nati alta melmenen




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dave
                                  ... [Well, for a discussion of this, you may want to read Elfscript messages 4345-4349 and 4353. If you want a straightforward recommendation though, I d
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 30, 2004
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                                    >--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio" <fradeve11@v...> wrote:

                                    >The question of the _i_ looks more complicated. Like I've said, I don't know Sindarin, so the question of peculiar >accentuation of the word is a problem for me. I will draw long or short carriers everywhere you will indicated me.
                                    >So, on this topic, I ask you to be more clear!

                                    [Well, for a discussion of this, you may want to read Elfscript messages 4345-4349 and 4353.

                                    If you want a straightforward recommendation though, I'd repeat what I wrote in message 4336, i.e. simply use short carriers for all occurrences of _i_.

                                    My _rationale_ for suggesting this would be a bit different now: it seems that in this mode (Mode of Beleriand) long vs. short carriers do not indicate any distinct sounds, so there is no need to distinguish between them in writing (they all stand for short _i_). Long _i_ (which incidentally does not occur in your calligraphy) can be indicated by an andaith (acute accent) on top (as with the other vowels), _not_ with the help of long vs. short carrier.

                                    (The dot that is occasionally seen on the I-tengwar (i.e. the long or short carrier) in this mode does not carry any special phonetic significance, either. Rather, it just seems to "emphasize" the I-tengwar visually.)

                                    The upshot is that it's really up to you: you can use only short or only long carriers, with or without dots, or even mix them as you like (I personally would prefer consistent usage).

                                    So, in other words, once you've corrected the spelling of _im_, _llie_ and maybe _en_ (see message 4335), the spelling will be fine.]

                                    Hísilómë




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                                  • calwen76
                                    ... creation. I m only doing a favour to my girlfriend, that needs help with the tengwar transcription. I ve studied Quenya, not Sindarin, so I don t know
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                                      Replying to Calwen76:
                                      > The "Grelvish" text that I'm translating in tengwar is not a my
                                      creation. I'm only doing a favour to my girlfriend, that needs help
                                      with the tengwar transcription. I've studied Quenya, not Sindarin, so
                                      I don't know exactly in which way the phrase

                                      _Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en
                                      ely_

                                      must be representative of Grelvish or other depreciable languages.
                                      So, starting from my personal point of view, I will more appreciate
                                      someone who will underlines where and what are the errors, than a
                                      simply and corrosive verdict. Probably my girlfriend will think right
                                      there.

                                      ------------

                                      Hm, so if it's not your creation how can you say it is a "Sindarin"
                                      text?
                                      My comments:
                                      1) this group concerns the scripts, not the languages (it's better to
                                      go to the Elfling group to look for help)
                                      2) to be more specific, as you wished me to be, in Sindarin, e.g. the
                                      _Aa'_ cluster is not possible, as well as the initial cluster _ll_ in
                                      _llie_ : this language is called Grelvish and thus I can't help you
                                      with the translation since I don't know Grelvish as well as I think
                                      none here (and either on Elfling group) is willing to help you with
                                      correcting such text. You missed my point though. :-/

                                      To Dave: I don't understand you, Dave, why are you doing this? :-(

                                      Lucy
                                    • Fradeve Virgilio
                                      ... know Sindarin, so the question of peculiar accentuation of the word is a problem for me. I will draw long or short carriers everywhere you will indicated
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 5, 2004
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                                        In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio" <fradeve11@v...> wrote:

                                        >>The question of the _i_ looks more complicated. Like I've said, I don't
                                        know Sindarin, so the question of peculiar >>accentuation of the word is a
                                        problem for me. I will draw long or short carriers everywhere you will
                                        indicated me.
                                        >>So, on this topic, I ask you to be more clear!

                                        > [Well, for a discussion of this, you may want to read Elfscript messages
                                        4345-4349 and 4353.

                                        > If you want a straightforward recommendation though, I'd repeat what I
                                        wrote in message 4336, i.e. simply use short >carriers for all occurrences
                                        of _i_.

                                        > My _rationale_ for suggesting this would be a bit different now: it seems
                                        that in this mode (Mode of Beleriand) long >vs. short carriers do not
                                        indicate any distinct sounds, so there is no need to distinguish between
                                        them in writing (they >all stand for short _i_). Long _i_ (which
                                        incidentally does not occur in your calligraphy) can be indicated by an
                                        andaith >(acute accent) on top (as with the other vowels), _not_ with the
                                        help of long vs. short carrier.

                                        >(The dot that is occasionally seen on the I-tengwar (i.e. the long or
                                        short carrier) in this mode does not carry any >special phonetic
                                        significance, either. Rather, it just seems to "emphasize" the I-tengwar
                                        visually.)

                                        > The upshot is that it's really up to you: you can use only short or only
                                        long carriers, with or without dots, or even >mix them as you like (I
                                        personally would prefer consistent usage).

                                        > So, in other words, once you've corrected the spelling of _im_, _llie_
                                        and maybe _en_ (see message 4335), the spelling >will be fine.]

                                        > Hísilómë




                                        Excellent!

                                        Now I’m completely satisfacted…
                                        You’ve been too exaurient explaining the point of situation (on the contrary
                                        of other people on this ML…): little pills of Sindarin!
                                        Much thanks, I’m going to prepare the scratch for a difinitive version!

                                        Fradeve Virgilio



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                                      • Fradeve Virgilio
                                        ... Answering to Calwen76: Now, I ve very appreciated your explaining. I think it s better than your behaviour before this last post. I ve said that it was a
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 12, 2004
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                                          >--- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Fradeve Virgilio" <fradeve11@v...>
                                          >Replying to Calwen76:
                                          >> The "Grelvish" text that I'm translating in tengwar is not a my
                                          >>creation. I'm only doing a favour to my girlfriend, that needs help
                                          >>with the tengwar transcription. I've studied Quenya, not Sindarin, so
                                          >>I don't know exactly in which way the phrase
                                          >>
                                          >>_Aa' I elin thilio ui erin le, ar I sul dregi im fin llie brannon en
                                          >>ely_
                                          >>
                                          >>must be representative of Grelvish or other depreciable languages.
                                          >>So, starting from my personal point of view, I will more appreciate
                                          >>someone who will underlines where and what are the errors, than a
                                          >>simply and corrosive verdict. Probably my girlfriend will think right
                                          >>there.
                                          >
                                          >------------
                                          >
                                          >Hm, so if it's not your creation how can you say it is a "Sindarin"
                                          >text?
                                          >My comments:
                                          >1) this group concerns the scripts, not the languages (it's better to
                                          >go to the Elfling group to look for help)
                                          >2) to be more specific, as you wished me to be, in Sindarin, e.g. the
                                          >_Aa'_ cluster is not possible, as well as the initial cluster _ll_ in
                                          >_llie_ : this language is called Grelvish and thus I can't help you
                                          >with the translation since I don't know Grelvish as well as I think
                                          >none here (and either on Elfling group) is willing to help you with
                                          >correcting such text. You missed my point though. :-/
                                          >
                                          >To Dave: I don't understand you, Dave, why are you doing this? :-(
                                          >
                                          >Lucy




                                          Answering to Calwen76:

                                          Now, I've very appreciated your explaining. I think it's better than your
                                          behaviour before this last post.
                                          I've said that it was a "Sindarin" text only because I supposed that my
                                          girlfriend had a little knowledge
                                          on this linguistic topic (but, however, now I'm thinking I'm wrong.).
                                          Was not my intention to start a linguistic dibate on this ML in wich it's
                                          quite OT, but I've started considering
                                          the tengwar side of the phrase, so anything was put out during this
                                          discussion was not my fault.
                                          I'll sent your response to the author of the phrase.
                                          I'm working on a correct version. so,

                                          Regards,

                                          Fradeve


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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