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Plain Letters ("orthographic") Mode of King's Letter

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  • hisilome
    ... While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly) orthographic English full mode there is, I do have a couple of comments/questions, ... King s
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Andriës" tegilbor@h...> wrote:

      While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly) orthographic
      English full mode there is, I do have a couple of comments/questions,
      which I have interspersed in the text in the relevant places:

      > A long post follows; This is JRRT's Plain Letters Mode for English
      as seen in 'Sauron Defeated':
      >
      > The asterisk (*) is used to mark characters not attested in the
      King's Letter, but which seem logical.
      > >
      > > a = vilya
      > > ai, ay = vilya + 2 over-dots
      > > au, aw = vilya + following w sign
      > > b = umbar
      > > hard c [k] = quesse
      > > soft c [s] = silme nuquerna
      > > ch [tš] = calma

      One might add here that "ck" seems to be spelled with quesse +
      under-bar (as in "reckoning").

      > > d = ando
      > > e = yanta
      > > ee = yanta + under-bar
      > > ei, ey = yanta + 2 over-dots
      > > *eu, ew = yanta + following w sign
      > > silent e, schwa = single under-dot
      > > f = formen
      > > g = ungwe
      > > gh (often silent in English) = unque
      > > h = hyarmen
      > > i = short carrier
      > > *j = anga
      > > k = quesse
      > > l = lambe
      > > ll = alda
      > > m = malta
      > > n = númen
      > > ng = nwalme
      > > o = anna
      > > oi, oy = anna + 2 over-dots
      > > oo = anna + under-bar
      > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

      Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
      tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find these
      two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the King's
      Letter (English part).

      > > p = parma
      > > ph = formen
      > > *qu = quesse + following w sign
      > > r = rómen. óre
      > > s = silme
      > > sh = harma
      > > t = tinco
      > > th [þ] = thúle
      > > th [ð] = anto
      > > u = vala
      > > *ui = vala + 2 over-dots

      Here I have to ask: why use the asterisk? This is clearly attested in
      "Baranduin".

      > > v = ampa
      > > w = úre
      > > *wh = hwesta sindarinwa
      > > * = quesse + s curl
      > > y = long carrier
      > > *z = esse (áre)
      > >
      > The choice between 'rómen' and 'óre' follows the usual rules (i. e.
      'óre' before consonants, before silent 'e' and at the end of a word;

      Not necessarily, it seems. Sometimes rómen is used before a silent
      "e", as consistently seen in the phrase "Mayor of the SHIRE".
      Furthermore, word-final "r" is _usually_ also spelt with rómen if the
      next word begins with a vowel (i.e. pronounced "r" is as a rule
      spelled with rómen, even at the end of words).

      'rómen' before all vowels except silent 'e'.)

      Not necessarily (see above).
      Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
      óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up".

      Hisilome


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    • j_mach_wust
      ... I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13. ... Maybe he s confused it with DTS
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
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        hisilome wrote:
        > While I agree that this is by and large the best (mostly)
        > orthographic English full mode there is,

        I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the
        w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13.

        Danny Andriës wrote (in message #651):
        > > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

        hisilome commented:
        > Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
        > tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find
        > these two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the
        > King's Letter (English part).

        Maybe he's confused it with DTS 10 and 13 where we have many instances
        of both sounds? I believe there's no problem about using certain
        spellings from DTS 10/13 as evidence for the spelling of the King's
        Letters and vice versa, since they're basically the same.

        > > The choice between 'rómen' and 'óre' follows the usual rules (i.
        > > e. 'óre' before consonants, before silent 'e' and at the end of a
        > > word;
        >
        > Not necessarily, it seems. Sometimes rómen is used before a silent
        > "e", as consistently seen in the phrase "Mayor of the SHIRE".
        > Furthermore, word-final "r" is _usually_ also spelt with rómen if
        > the next word begins with a vowel (i.e. pronounced "r" is as a rule
        > spelled with rómen, even at the end of words).

        That's true.

        > Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
        > óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up").

        I'd agree it's a slip-up.

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • Dave
        j_mach_wust wrote: I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13. [Yes, that
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2004
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          j_mach_wust wrote:<>

          I prefer the r-representation with óre alone (and consequently the
          w-representation with rómen) as in DTS 10 and 13.

          [Yes, that certainly simplifies matters.]

          Danny Andriës wrote (in message #651):
          > > > ou, ow = anna + following w sign

          hisilome commented:
          > Why not mark "oo" and "ou/ow" with an asterisk? While the assigned
          > tengwa/tehta combinations certainly seem logical, I cannot find
          > these two spellings attested anywhere in the three versions of the
          > King's Letter (English part).

          Maybe he's confused it with DTS 10 and 13 where we have many instances
          of both sounds? I believe there's no problem about using certain
          spellings from DTS 10/13 as evidence for the spelling of the King's
          Letters and vice versa, since they're basically the same.

          <>[I have no problem with doing so either. But Danny Andriës said his
          suggestions were based solely on the King's Letter, that's why I was
          confused.]
          <>
          > Notice also that once (third copy) the "re" in "Shire" is spelt with
          > óre - yanta (but that is probably just a "slip-up").

          I'd agree it's a slip-up.

          [BTW, still waiting for somebody's comments on the "R-rule" (if any) in
          the Full Mode of Gondor (message 4304):-). Really no pattern at all?]

          Hisilome




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