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My poem is now completely transcribed

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  • Gregson Vaux
    I finally finished transcribing the love poem that I wrote several years ago and it took far too long. I will leave it for a week or so without the Latin
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 29, 2004
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      I finally finished transcribing the love poem that I wrote several
      years ago and it took far too long. I will leave it for a week or so
      without the Latin letter version so all of you can try reading it and
      see if I transcribed it correctly. It is in the Common English mode as
      described in Chris McKay's Tengwar Textbook.

      The name of the file is "Love Poem"

      There is a sad story behind this poem that I will tell later.

      Gregson Vaux
    • j_mach_wust
      ... This mode isn t recommendable at all since it s a secondary invention that ignores many features of the attested modes by J. R. R. Tolkien, just like the
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 30, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
        >
        > I finally finished transcribing the love poem that I wrote several
        > years ago and it took far too long. I will leave it for a week or so
        > without the Latin letter version so all of you can try reading it and
        > see if I transcribed it correctly. It is in the Common English mode as
        > described in Chris McKay's Tengwar Textbook.

        This mode isn't recommendable at all since it's a secondary invention
        that ignores many features of the attested modes by J. R. R. Tolkien,
        just like the modes by Christopher Tolkien. See also:

        http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/4265

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • Gregson Vaux
        Mach, You don t like Chris McKay s Common English Mode which I can understand to some degree but didn t Tolkien himself talk about how the tengwar were
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 30, 2004
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          Mach,

          You don't like Chris McKay's "Common English Mode" which I can
          understand to some degree but didn't Tolkien himself talk about how
          the tengwar were adapted by different races for writing their own
          languages? In addition, as far as I can tell, and I will admit that I
          am nowhere close to being a tengwar expert, Tolkien was inconsistent
          in his own writing.

          What I am trying to say is that I think an effort should be made to
          make the tengwar consistent, but JRRT's writing do not give this to
          us. In addition, my purpose in learning the tengwar is to write texts
          in Elfish script and not too endlessly refer back to inconsistent
          scripts that were never intended to be tutorials.

          What I think Chris McKay has done is to attempt to make this tutorial
          and to be as true to JRRT as possible while still having something
          workable. I very much believe that we need a uniform English mode and
          as far as I know, Chris McKay's is the only one out there. Perhaps the
          trouble you have with his system is that it relys a bit on CJRT's
          usage. If you can show me a better sytem, I would like to see it, but
          I am too busy to endlessly study inconsistent fragments si that I can
          write.

          Gregson

          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Gregson Vaux" <gvaux@m...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I finally finished transcribing the love poem that I wrote several
          > > years ago and it took far too long. I will leave it for a week or so
          > > without the Latin letter version so all of you can try reading it and
          > > see if I transcribed it correctly. It is in the Common English mode as
          > > described in Chris McKay's Tengwar Textbook.
          >
          > This mode isn't recommendable at all since it's a secondary invention
          > that ignores many features of the attested modes by J. R. R. Tolkien,
          > just like the modes by Christopher Tolkien. See also:
          >
          > http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/4265
          >
          > ---------------------------
          > j. 'mach' wust
          > http://machhezan.tripod.com
          > ---------------------------
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... Then why not just write whatever you like however you like, _in private_? If you have no concern for correctness, only for ease, then why ask others to
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 30, 2004
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            On Oct 30, 2004, at 8:58 AM, Gregson Vaux wrote:

            > I am too busy to endlessly study inconsistent fragments si that I can
            > write.

            Then why not just write whatever you like however you like, _in
            private_? If you have no concern for correctness, only for ease, then
            why ask others to comment on your work?


            --
            =============================================
            Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

            ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
            Ars longa, vita brevis.
            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
            "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
            a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
          • Gregson Vaux
            I guess I wasn t very clear. I very much believe in correctness but in the case of an English mode, what is correct? I am making the case that the Tengwar
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 30, 2004
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              I guess I wasn't very clear. I very much believe in correctness but in
              the case of an English mode, what is correct? I am making the case
              that the Tengwar textbook is correct and I especially respect that it
              is a tutorial that helps the new learner. I see all of these arguments
              about what is correct but it seems that Tolkien did not leave a large
              enough body of consistent writing to properly judge what is correct.
              Again, I will stress that I am new to this and in no way an expert.

              I very much want to learn to write using tengwar so that others can
              read what I write but I need the help of a tutorial that gives me some
              fairly easy rules to follow. I would be interested in hearing if
              people think that the Tengwar Textbook is a good way to learn.

              Gregson



              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
              >
              > On Oct 30, 2004, at 8:58 AM, Gregson Vaux wrote:
              >
              > > I am too busy to endlessly study inconsistent fragments si that I can
              > > write.
              >
              > Then why not just write whatever you like however you like, _in
              > private_? If you have no concern for correctness, only for ease, then
              > why ask others to comment on your work?
              >
              >
              > --
              > =============================================
              > Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@e... http://www.elvish.org
              >
              > ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
              > Ars longa, vita brevis.
              > The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
              > "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
              > a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
            • j_mach_wust
              ... No it isn t. There s e.g. the so-called original mode (also by Chris in the very same Tengwar Textbook). Or there s a very short yet still complete
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 31, 2004
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                Gregson Vaux wrote:
                >
                > What I think Chris McKay has done is to attempt to make this
                > tutorial and to be as true to JRRT as possible while still having
                > something workable. I very much believe that we need a uniform
                > English mode and as far as I know, Chris McKay's is the only one out
                > there.

                No it isn't. There's e.g. the so-called 'original mode' (also by Chris
                in the very same Tengwar Textbook). Or there's a very short yet still
                complete description of a Tolkienian full mode by Danny Andriƫs:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/651

                I've tried to make a similar description of a Tolkienian tehtar mode
                (but I'd recommend you also have a look at the following discussion):

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2525

                If you only want to know the differences between your use of Chris
                McKay's "Common Mode" and Tolkien's use, then I'd suggest you reread
                the messages #4265 and #4278 not as an endless back reference to
                inconsistent fragments, but as precise information on how the spelling
                should be according to Tolkien's example (because that was what I
                intended them to be).

                > I guess I wasn't very clear. I very much believe in correctness but
                > in the case of an English mode, what is correct? I am making the
                > case that the Tengwar textbook is correct and I especially respect
                > that it is a tutorial that helps the new learner. I see all of these
                > arguments about what is correct but it seems that Tolkien did not
                > leave a large enough body of consistent writing to properly judge
                > what is correct.

                The body is very narrow (only about half a dozen of samples). However,
                it's large and consistent enough to build a useful mode on it. Only
                very few guesses remain to be made (notably a consistent
                representation of _ee_ and _oo_). There's no need at all to rely on
                secondary samples not made by J. R. R. Tolkien himself.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
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