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Re: [elfscript] Re: spelling of u/w in English modes [was: How do I write "I"]

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  • Dave
    ... From: j_mach_wust To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 4:39 AM Subject: [elfscript] Re: spelling of u/w in English modes [was: How
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 25, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: j_mach_wust
      To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 4:39 AM
      Subject: [elfscript] Re: spelling of u/w in English modes [was: How do I write "I"]



      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
      >>
      >> (BTW, I was not aware that Tolkien actually sometimes wrote Quenya
      >> placing the tehta on the _following consonant, as apparently in
      >> DTS-38 and also in DTS-54:2 "Heru imillion". Not quite in accordance
      >> with his general statements in LotR.)

      > I have to remember this point of yours. It's a good argument that the
      > general statement in appendix E is only a simplification, as I
      > believe. Indeed, there's also some English words where the tengwar
      > bear the following tehtar, and even one Sindarin word (DTS 58).

      Right, the second _Imladrist_ in DTS-58 (I am relying for this on Chris McKay's ISS, I guess few people have access to even a copy of the original), the first being in the Mode of Beleriand.
      BTW, I noticed that in the same sample the Westron word for this placename, "Rivendell", seems strictly speaking to be spelled "Rivndel", both in the first version (tehta on preceding consonant) and the second (tehta on following consonant). Any significance to this (that is, could this have been intentional or just a little "mistake" by Tolkien)?
      (Chris McKay reflects the fact that there's only one "l" in his transcription, but not the "missing" "e".)

      >> As for DTS-56, we cannot really be sure that the entire sample
      >> belongs in the "General Use Mode", can we? Since the decisive
      >> difference between this mode and the Classical (Quenya) one is the
      >> use of the calmatéma for velars in the latter and of the quessetéma
      >> in the former (tehta use being flexible in the former and thus
      >> possibly coinciding with the Quenya mode), in this specimen we can
      >> only assume from the spelling of Tolkien's own name (English) that
      >> he's using the "General Use Mode", because the "k" (quesse) in
      >> "Tolkien" is the only quessetéma letter occuring in the entire
      >> sample. Could the famous "Elen síla..." greeting (Quenya) not simply
      >> be "Classical Mode"? We do sometimes see the use of different modes
      >> in one single sample, right? Just a thought...

      > Certainly, this happens many times. However, you've concentrated too
      > much on the témar (which as you state don't give any hint in this
      > particular sample) and you've overlooked the tyeller: In the classical
      > Quenya mode, _nt_ would be written with an 'antotyelle' sign, that is,
      > with anto, but in this sample, it's written with tinco + bar above
      > (according to the ISS). That means that the mode is not the classical
      > Quenya mode. I think it's reasonable to assume the mode is the general
      > use (of course, we can't exclude the possibility that it'd be a
      > mysterious third Quenya mode; there's no way to prove it).

      Yes, of course, thanks for pointing that out! I had overlooked the significance of how _nt_ is spelled here.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------






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    • j_mach_wust
      ... Actually, a copy of this one is publicly and legally available at sotheby s. The link can be found at the DTS (it s probably too long to be posted here):
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 25, 2004
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        Dave wrote:
        >
        > >> (BTW, I was not aware that Tolkien actually sometimes wrote
        > >> Quenya placing the tehta on the _following consonant, as
        > >> apparently in DTS-38 and also in DTS-54:2 "Heru imillion". Not
        > >> quite in accordance with his general statements in LotR.)
        >
        > > I have to remember this point of yours. It's a good argument
        > > that the general statement in appendix E is only a
        > > simplification, as I believe. Indeed, there's also some English
        > > words where the tengwar bear the following tehtar, and even one
        > > Sindarin word (DTS 58).
        >
        > Right, the second _Imladrist_ in DTS-58 (I am relying for this on
        > Chris McKay's ISS, I guess few people have access to even a copy of
        > the original), the first being in the Mode of Beleriand.

        Actually, a copy of this one is publicly and legally available at
        sotheby's. The link can be found at the DTS (it's probably too long to
        be posted here):

        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html#DTS58

        > BTW, I noticed that in the same sample the Westron word for this
        > placename, "Rivendell", seems strictly speaking to be spelled
        > "Rivndel", both in the first version (tehta on preceding consonant)
        > and the second (tehta on following consonant). Any significance to
        > this (that is, could this have been intentional or just a little
        > "mistake" by Tolkien)?
        > (Chris McKay reflects the fact that there's only one "l" in his
        > transcription, but not the "missing" "e".)

        The word is English, not Westron (a supposed translation of a Westron
        word into English). I think both features, the single 'l' and the
        missing 'e' show us that these samples are to be understood as samples
        of phonemic English tehtar modes. The 'missing e' is of especial
        interest, since in other phonemic English modes (both in the very well
        attested full writing modes and in the few words of tehtar modes, that
        is, in the word "Britain" /britn/ in DTS 39), syllabic consonants like
        the 'n' in /rivndel/ are normally marked with a dot below (e.g. DTS 23
        "welcome" /welkm/, "little" /litl/).

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • Dave
        ... From: j_mach_wust To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: [elfscript] Re: spelling of u/w in English modes [was: How
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 25, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: j_mach_wust
          To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:16 PM
          Subject: [elfscript] Re: spelling of u/w in English modes [was: How do I write "I"]



          Dave wrote:

          >> BTW, I noticed that in the same sample the Westron word for this
          >> placename, "Rivendell", seems strictly speaking to be spelled
          >> "Rivndel" [...]

          > The word is English, not Westron (a supposed translation of a Westron
          > word into English).

          Of course you are right (just like "ancient English" is used to represent the language of the Rohirrim). That's what I meant, but I was being "too concise" there if you like :(.

          > I think both features, the single 'l' and the
          > missing 'e' show us that these samples are to be understood as samples
          > of phonemic English tehtar modes. The 'missing e' is of especial
          > interest, since in other phonemic English modes (both in the very well
          > attested full writing modes and in the few words of tehtar modes, that
          > is, in the word "Britain" /britn/ in DTS 39), syllabic consonants like
          > the 'n' in /rivndel/ are normally marked with a dot below (e.g. DTS 23
          > "welcome" /welkm/, "little" /litl/).

          So this is the only known example of "missing" (intended or not) dots under syllabic consonants, I gather?

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • j_mach_wust
          ... If I remember correctly. Unless you count the samples in DTS 17, 18, 23 that lack the dot below, but I think these are mistakes. ... j. mach wust
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 25, 2004
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            Dave wrote:
            >
            > > I think both features, the single 'l' and the missing 'e' show us
            > > that these samples are to be understood as samples of phonemic
            > > English tehtar modes. The 'missing e' is of especial interest,
            > > since in other phonemic English modes (both in the very well
            > > attested full writing modes and in the few words of tehtar modes,
            > > that is, in the word "Britain" /britn/ in DTS 39), syllabic
            > > consonants like the 'n' in /rivndel/ are normally marked with a
            > > dot below (e.g. DTS 23 "welcome" /welkm/, "little" /litl/).
            >
            > So this is the only known example of "missing" (intended or not)
            > dots under syllabic consonants, I gather?

            If I remember correctly. Unless you count the samples in DTS 17, 18,
            23 that lack the dot below, but I think these are mistakes.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
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