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final "R" tengwa in second and third version of King's Letter

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  • Dave
    Hi, does anybody know why the final R in the words Strider and Gondor in the second version of the King s Letter, and in the word Strider in the third
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 19, 2004
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      Hi,

      does anybody know why the final "R" in the words "Strider" and "Gondor" in the second version of the King's Letter, and in the word "Strider" in the third version, is written with a "strange-looking" tengwa (instead of with "oore" or "roomen" as one might have expected, and as final "R" is in fact written in all other instances in both versions plus all throughout the first version of the King's Letter).

      Does anybody know what that tengwa is, what it's called, and why it is used here? Does it appear anywhere else in Tolkien's writings?

      I appreciate your help,

      Hisilome


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... The tengwa used in these words is called a mistake . In each of these instances, Tolkien started to write an óre, since the _r_ was word-final, but
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 19, 2004
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        On Oct 19, 2004, at 4:21 AM, hisilome wrote:

        > Does anybody know what that tengwa is, what it's called, and why it is
        > used here? Does it appear anywhere else in Tolkien's writings?

        The tengwa used in these words is called "a mistake". In each of these
        instances, Tolkien started to write an óre, since the _r_ was
        word-final, but realizing that the next word began with a vowel, he
        changed it as well as he could into a rómen. Further examples appear
        in the word "Mayor" in the first and second versions.

        ***************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
        --Elvish proverb

        ***************************************************
      • Dave
        Thanks for clarifying that, the tengwar in question certainly look like óre amended to rómen. This has also lead me to some new thoughts and questions. Are
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 20, 2004
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          Thanks for clarifying that, the "tengwar" in question certainly look like óre amended to rómen.
          This has also lead me to some new thoughts and questions.

          Are we to deduce from this usage that in this mode "R" should be (by Tolkien's intentions) spelled with a rómen _whenever_ it is followed by a vowel (regardless of its position: medial or final), i.e. for final "R" the first sound/letter of the next word has also to be taken into account?
          If so, Tolkien failed to follow this through in all instances: for example, in the first copy, _Gondor_ is spelled with óre (though followed by _and_), and in the third letter, _Mayor_ is spelled with óre (though followed by _of the_). Maybe in these instances Tolkien forgot to apply the above "rule", if indeed he had such a rule in mind?
          Only in the second copy (as given in AI) is "R" before a vowel (medial _and_ final) consistently written as rómen. This is, counting the "peculiar" tengwa as a rómen in accordance with your explanation that here Tolkien turned óre into rómen. The fact that he made this change in several instances (at least once in all three copies) would seem to indicate that indeed he felt that in this mode, "R" was always to be represented by a rómen when followed by a vowel, even finally.

          In Quenya, the spelling rules for "R" generally go as follows (attested for example in the "Jacket Namárie"): Rómen at the beginning of a word (where "R" it is invariably followed by a vowel) and medially if followed by a vowel (usually wedged between two vowels). In all other instances óre is always used, i.e. medially when followed by a consonant and finally _regardless_ of what sound/letter the next word begins with (cf. _rámar aldaron_ etc).

          In the Beleriandic Sindarin mode (full mode), rómen is always used for "R" in any context simply because óre is reserved for "N", cf. "A Elbereth" or the inscription on the Gate of Moria. Most examples of Tolkien writing Sindarin with Tengwar seem to be in this mode.

          With the exception of----the third copy of the "King's Letter". I am now talking about the Sindarin part:
          here, using the "Standard" Sindarin mode (the Mode of Gondor using diacritic signs [tehtar] for the vowels), Tolkien lets rómen appear several times medially before a consonant, which seems not attested elsewhere(?). Examples for such use of rómen in case of non-final, pre-consonantal "R" include _Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn_, _Arnor_ or _Cordof_. Then again, he (only) once uses óre in similar positions, e.g _iCherdir_, possibly a "mistake"?
          As for "R" in a non-final position followed by a vowel, rómen is consistenly used (_Aragorn Arathornion_, _erin_, _aníra_ etc.).

          Final "R" is always spelled with an óre, regardless of which sound/letter the next words begins with (e.g. _Ar Elanor_, _egor ben_, _ar Arnor ar Hír iMbair_, _Elessar Telcontar Aragorn_ etc).

          There are no examples in this text for initial "R".

          Final question: is it thus legitimate to deduce the following spelling rules for "R" in the Mode of Gondor ("Sindarin Tehta Mode") and "R" in the "King's Letter" English mode:

          a) Initial "R": ? (probably rómen, partly because initial "R" is always followed by a vowel ["RH" does not really count as a consonant cluster I assume?]).

          b) Medial/non-final "R" before consonant: well, IF we can assume (??) that the medial "R" in _iCherdir_ is spelled with óre by "mistake" (since in all other instances "R" is spelled with rómen in this position), then we could say that (quite unlike in Quenya or in the English mode employed for the "Westron" parts of the "King's Letter") in this context "R" is also spelled with rómen.

          c) Medial/non-final "R" before vowel: always represented by rómen.

          d) Final "R" (regardless of whether following word begins with vowel or consonant): always spelled with óre.

          In summary, a more concise expression of the above rules could go like this: In the Mode of Gondor (Tehta Sindarin Mode), every non-final "R" is represented by rómen, every final "R" is spelled with óre.
          (We cannot be a 100% sure about initial "R" I guess, and we have to count _iCherdir as a "mistake".)

          As for the "English mode" employed in the "King's Letter" (all three versions), we could say this:

          a) Initial "R": rómen.

          b) Medial/non-final "R" before consonant: óre.

          c) Medial/non-final "R" before vowel: rómen.

          d) Final "R": óre if the following word begins with a consonant (as in _Master Samwise_), rómen if the following words begins with a vowel (as in _Mayor of the Shire_). BUT as I've pointed out above, this is not followed through consistently in the "King's Letter".

          Do these rules look reasonable?

          (BTW, seems that the "R" is missing completely in the word _Strider_ in the third copy.)

          Hisilome

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Arden R. Smith
          To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:47 AM
          Subject: Re: [elfscript] final "R" tengwa in second and third version of King's Letter



          On Oct 19, 2004, at 4:21 AM, hisilome wrote:

          > Does anybody know what that tengwa is, what it's called, and why it is
          > used here? Does it appear anywhere else in Tolkien's writings?

          The tengwa used in these words is called "a mistake". In each of these
          instances, Tolkien started to write an óre, since the _r_ was
          word-final, but realizing that the next word began with a vowel, he
          changed it as well as he could into a rómen. Further examples appear
          in the word "Mayor" in the first and second versions.

          ***************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
          --Elvish proverb

          ***************************************************


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • j_mach_wust
          ... As well as the first occurrence of aníra and Perhael . But all other 29 occurences of medial r are spelled with rómen, so I think this assumption is
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 20, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
            >
            > In summary, a more concise expression of the above rules could go
            > like this: In the Mode of Gondor (Tehta Sindarin Mode), every
            > non-final "R" is represented by rómen, every final "R" is spelled
            > with óre.
            > (We cannot be a 100% sure about initial "R" I guess, and we have to
            > count _iCherdir as a "mistake".)

            As well as the first occurrence of "aníra" and "Perhael". But all
            other 29 occurences of medial r are spelled with rómen, so I think
            this assumption is pretty safe (after taking into account the words
            "aníra, tírad" and "Iorhael, á Pherhael").

            > As for the "English mode" employed in the "King's Letter" (all three
            > versions), we could say this:
            >
            > a) Initial "R": rómen.
            >
            > b) Medial/non-final "R" before consonant: óre.
            >
            > c) Medial/non-final "R" before vowel: rómen.
            >
            > d) Final "R": óre if the following word begins with a consonant (as
            > in _Master Samwise_), rómen if the following words begins with a
            > vowel (as in _Mayor of the Shire_). BUT as I've pointed out above,
            > this is not followed through consistently in the "King's Letter".

            When we consider that J. R. R. Tolkien spoke an r-dropping/non-rhotic
            dialect, then we can simplify this:

            a) Pronounced/rhotic r is spelled with rómen.

            b) Dropped r is spelled with óre.

            Of course, the distribution of pronounced r and dropped r is
            predictable; it's described by the rules you've written above.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • Gregson Vaux
            This once again gets back to the idea that the R-rule us an expression of RP. In R-less dialects, R s are inserted between vowels and the rule is called
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 20, 2004
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              This once again gets back to the idea that the R-rule us an
              expression of RP. In R-less dialects, R's are inserted between
              vowels and the rule is called "intervocalic R insertion" (that is if
              I remember my phonetics training correctly). An example of
              intervocalic R insertion is that RP speaking Brits and speakers of
              Bostonian American English will both say, "CubaR is a communist
              country" instead of "Cuba is a communist country".

              Gregson Vaux


              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <david.vdpeet@m...> wrote:
              > Thanks for clarifying that, the "tengwar" in question certainly
              look like óre amended to rómen.
              > This has also lead me to some new thoughts and questions.
              >
              > Are we to deduce from this usage that in this mode "R" should be
              (by Tolkien's intentions) spelled with a rómen _whenever_ it is
              followed by a vowel (regardless of its position: medial or final),
              i.e. for final "R" the first sound/letter of the next word has also
              to be taken into account?
              > If so, Tolkien failed to follow this through in all instances: for
              example, in the first copy, _Gondor_ is spelled with óre (though
              followed by _and_), and in the third letter, _Mayor_ is spelled with
              óre (though followed by _of the_). Maybe in these instances Tolkien
              forgot to apply the above "rule", if indeed he had such a rule in
              mind?
              > Only in the second copy (as given in AI) is "R" before a vowel
              (medial _and_ final) consistently written as rómen. This is,
              counting the "peculiar" tengwa as a rómen in accordance with your
              explanation that here Tolkien turned óre into rómen. The fact that
              he made this change in several instances (at least once in all three
              copies) would seem to indicate that indeed he felt that in this
              mode, "R" was always to be represented by a rómen when followed by a
              vowel, even finally.
              >
              > In Quenya, the spelling rules for "R" generally go as follows
              (attested for example in the "Jacket Namárie"): Rómen at the
              beginning of a word (where "R" it is invariably followed by a vowel)
              and medially if followed by a vowel (usually wedged between two
              vowels). In all other instances óre is always used, i.e. medially
              when followed by a consonant and finally _regardless_ of what
              sound/letter the next word begins with (cf. _rámar aldaron_ etc).
              >
              > In the Beleriandic Sindarin mode (full mode), rómen is always used
              for "R" in any context simply because óre is reserved for "N",
              cf. "A Elbereth" or the inscription on the Gate of Moria. Most
              examples of Tolkien writing Sindarin with Tengwar seem to be in this
              mode.
              >
              > With the exception of----the third copy of the "King's Letter". I
              am now talking about the Sindarin part:
              > here, using the "Standard" Sindarin mode (the Mode of Gondor using
              diacritic signs [tehtar] for the vowels), Tolkien lets rómen appear
              several times medially before a consonant, which seems not attested
              elsewhere(?). Examples for such use of rómen in case of non-final,
              pre-consonantal "R" include _Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn_, _Arnor_
              or _Cordof_. Then again, he (only) once uses óre in similar
              positions, e.g _iCherdir_, possibly a "mistake"?
              > As for "R" in a non-final position followed by a vowel, rómen is
              consistenly used (_Aragorn Arathornion_, _erin_, _aníra_ etc.).
              >
              > Final "R" is always spelled with an óre, regardless of which
              sound/letter the next words begins with (e.g. _Ar Elanor_, _egor
              ben_, _ar Arnor ar Hír iMbair_, _Elessar Telcontar Aragorn_ etc).
              >
              > There are no examples in this text for initial "R".
              >
              > Final question: is it thus legitimate to deduce the following
              spelling rules for "R" in the Mode of Gondor ("Sindarin Tehta Mode")
              and "R" in the "King's Letter" English mode:
              >
              > a) Initial "R": ? (probably rómen, partly because initial "R" is
              always followed by a vowel ["RH" does not really count as a
              consonant cluster I assume?]).
              >
              > b) Medial/non-final "R" before consonant: well, IF we can assume
              (??) that the medial "R" in _iCherdir_ is spelled with óre
              by "mistake" (since in all other instances "R" is spelled with rómen
              in this position), then we could say that (quite unlike in Quenya or
              in the English mode employed for the "Westron" parts of the "King's
              Letter") in this context "R" is also spelled with rómen.
              >
              > c) Medial/non-final "R" before vowel: always represented by rómen.
              >
              > d) Final "R" (regardless of whether following word begins with
              vowel or consonant): always spelled with óre.
              >
              > In summary, a more concise expression of the above rules could go
              like this: In the Mode of Gondor (Tehta Sindarin Mode), every non-
              final "R" is represented by rómen, every final "R" is spelled with
              óre.
              > (We cannot be a 100% sure about initial "R" I guess, and we have
              to count _iCherdir as a "mistake".)
              >
              > As for the "English mode" employed in the "King's Letter" (all
              three versions), we could say this:
              >
              > a) Initial "R": rómen.
              >
              > b) Medial/non-final "R" before consonant: óre.
              >
              > c) Medial/non-final "R" before vowel: rómen.
              >
              > d) Final "R": óre if the following word begins with a consonant
              (as in _Master Samwise_), rómen if the following words begins with a
              vowel (as in _Mayor of the Shire_). BUT as I've pointed out above,
              this is not followed through consistently in the "King's Letter".
              >
              > Do these rules look reasonable?
              >
              > (BTW, seems that the "R" is missing completely in the word
              _Strider_ in the third copy.)
              >
              > Hisilome
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Arden R. Smith
              > To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:47 AM
              > Subject: Re: [elfscript] final "R" tengwa in second and third
              version of King's Letter
              >
              >
              >
              > On Oct 19, 2004, at 4:21 AM, hisilome wrote:
              >
              > > Does anybody know what that tengwa is, what it's called, and
              why it is
              > > used here? Does it appear anywhere else in Tolkien's writings?
              >
              > The tengwa used in these words is called "a mistake". In each
              of these
              > instances, Tolkien started to write an óre, since the _r_ was
              > word-final, but realizing that the next word began with a vowel,
              he
              > changed it as well as he could into a rómen. Further examples
              appear
              > in the word "Mayor" in the first and second versions.
              >
              > ***************************************************
              > Arden R. Smith erilaz@e...
              >
              > Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
              > --Elvish proverb
              >
              > ***************************************************
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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