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telco, lúva, hwarma?

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  • Arden R. Smith
    I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch s book, _Elbisch_, and something on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of which the
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 8, 2004
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      I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and something
      on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of
      which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen" (Qu.
      _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
      _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, but
      where did this _hwarma_ come from? The word appears in _The
      Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p. 386),
      but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any reference
      whatsoever to the tengwar.

      Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section (p.
      286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
      Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar (in
      writing)"].

      However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke that
      closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I know)
      any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings, published or
      unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this idea?
      Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

      This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general: he
      frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information without
      any indication that they are just that. At least he gives references
      to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his information.


      ***************************************************
      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

      Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
      --Elvish proverb

      ***************************************************
    • calwen76
      ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I m still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 9, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
        > Hvala, Lucy!
        >
        > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
        if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny
        who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the
        Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean
        representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case,
        thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
        >
        > Cao i hocu!
        > Aida

        Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
        authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
        among us anymore.

        Concerning ómatehtar: no, ómatehtar are signs for vowels written out
        above or below the tengwar in tehta modes (as seen for example in the
        King's Letter I and III, SD:130,131). In full modes (for expample,
        the Moria Gate transcription), vowels are written with tengwar (as
        the consonants are). Full modes can also include tehtar signs e.g.
        the sign called _andaith_ (long mark - used for prolonging the vowel,
        e.g. _á_) - but these are not ómatehtar. In short: ómatehtar are
        signs for vowels in tehta modes.

        Hope I made myself clear. If you'd be interested, here is my guide to
        Tengwar (in Czech):

        http://sweb.cz/calwen.rudh/tengwar.htm

        Pozdravljam,
        Lucy
      • laurifindil
        ... something ... elements of ... (Qu. ... but ... The word appears in _The ... 386), ... reference ... (p. ... (in ... that ... know) ... published or ...
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Arden R. Smith <erilaz@e...> wrote:
          >
          > I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and
          something
          > on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three
          elements of
          > which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen"
          (Qu.
          > _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
          > _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_,
          but
          > where did this _hwarma_ come from?
          The word appears in _The
          > Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p.
          386),
          > but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any
          reference
          > whatsoever to the tengwar.
          >
          > Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section
          (p.
          > 286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
          > Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar
          (in
          > writing)"].
          >
          > However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke
          that
          > closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I
          know)
          > any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings,
          published or
          > unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this
          idea?
          > Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

          Comes from ? From his poor imagination... indeed, I guess.

          > This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general:
          he
          > frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information
          without
          > any indication that they are just that. At least he gives
          references
          > to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his
          information.

          Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
          book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
          see amloth/ambalotse.

          E. Kloczko
        • Arden R. Smith
          ... I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information second-hand, but thanks for the proof! ***************************************************
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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            On Sep 11, 2004, at 6:33 AM, laurifindil wrote:

            > Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
            > book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
            > see amloth/ambalotse.

            I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information
            second-hand, but thanks for the proof!


            ***************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
            --Elvish proverb

            ***************************************************
          • Aida Djikic
            ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many who would say they are. In any case, thank you for the offer, I m looking forward to
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 29, 2004
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              calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:


              > Hvala, Lucy!
              >
              > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
              if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many
              who would say they are. In any case,
              thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
              >
              > Cao i hocu!
              > Aida

              Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
              authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
              among us anymore.



              Zdravo opet!

              I had some time to work on a possible Bosnian Tengwar mode, so I was wondering whether it would be possible to send it to you personally as an attachment so that you can review it and let me know if I made mistakes in the process.

              Hvala i pozdrav!
              Aida



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