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Re: [elfscript] Re: Difference in tengwa for english and quenya modes

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  • Aida Djikic
    calwen76 wrote: Dobro došla, Aida! Mm, as I said, it s quite impossible to write a language X in a mode for language Y :-)) Well, I ve
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 8, 2004
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      calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:

      Dobro do�la, Aida!

      Mm, as I said, it's quite impossible to write a language X in a mode
      for language Y :-))

      Well, I've tried to think out a 'mode' for Czech (and paralelly to
      Serbian that I can speak a bit). I've found out that a full mode
      would fit the best since an omatehtar mode would collide with a
      problem of +/- equal percentage of vowel and consonant representation
      in Slavic languages. But, the important thing is that I am no way an
      authority here or there to say this is the right way to write Slavic
      languages in Tengwar :-)). If you're interested, I can piece my ideas
      together and send my suggestions - and as soon as you get more
      familiar with the Tengwar, you can try to think out another solution,
      hm? :-)

      �ao i u�ivaj!
      Lucy



      Hvala, Lucy!

      I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case, thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

      Cao i hocu!
      Aida




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    • Arden R. Smith
      I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch s book, _Elbisch_, and something on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of which the
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 8, 2004
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        I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and something
        on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of
        which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen" (Qu.
        _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
        _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, but
        where did this _hwarma_ come from? The word appears in _The
        Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p. 386),
        but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any reference
        whatsoever to the tengwar.

        Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section (p.
        286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
        Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar (in
        writing)"].

        However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke that
        closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I know)
        any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings, published or
        unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this idea?
        Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

        This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general: he
        frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information without
        any indication that they are just that. At least he gives references
        to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his information.


        ***************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
        --Elvish proverb

        ***************************************************
      • calwen76
        ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I m still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 9, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
          > Hvala, Lucy!
          >
          > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
          if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny
          who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the
          Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean
          representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case,
          thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
          >
          > Cao i hocu!
          > Aida

          Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
          authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
          among us anymore.

          Concerning ómatehtar: no, ómatehtar are signs for vowels written out
          above or below the tengwar in tehta modes (as seen for example in the
          King's Letter I and III, SD:130,131). In full modes (for expample,
          the Moria Gate transcription), vowels are written with tengwar (as
          the consonants are). Full modes can also include tehtar signs e.g.
          the sign called _andaith_ (long mark - used for prolonging the vowel,
          e.g. _á_) - but these are not ómatehtar. In short: ómatehtar are
          signs for vowels in tehta modes.

          Hope I made myself clear. If you'd be interested, here is my guide to
          Tengwar (in Czech):

          http://sweb.cz/calwen.rudh/tengwar.htm

          Pozdravljam,
          Lucy
        • laurifindil
          ... something ... elements of ... (Qu. ... but ... The word appears in _The ... 386), ... reference ... (p. ... (in ... that ... know) ... published or ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Arden R. Smith <erilaz@e...> wrote:
            >
            > I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and
            something
            > on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three
            elements of
            > which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen"
            (Qu.
            > _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
            > _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_,
            but
            > where did this _hwarma_ come from?
            The word appears in _The
            > Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p.
            386),
            > but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any
            reference
            > whatsoever to the tengwar.
            >
            > Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section
            (p.
            > 286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
            > Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar
            (in
            > writing)"].
            >
            > However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke
            that
            > closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I
            know)
            > any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings,
            published or
            > unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this
            idea?
            > Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

            Comes from ? From his poor imagination... indeed, I guess.

            > This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general:
            he
            > frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information
            without
            > any indication that they are just that. At least he gives
            references
            > to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his
            information.

            Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
            book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
            see amloth/ambalotse.

            E. Kloczko
          • Arden R. Smith
            ... I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information second-hand, but thanks for the proof! ***************************************************
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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              On Sep 11, 2004, at 6:33 AM, laurifindil wrote:

              > Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
              > book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
              > see amloth/ambalotse.

              I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information
              second-hand, but thanks for the proof!


              ***************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
              --Elvish proverb

              ***************************************************
            • Aida Djikic
              ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many who would say they are. In any case, thank you for the offer, I m looking forward to
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 29, 2004
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                calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:


                > Hvala, Lucy!
                >
                > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
                if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many
                who would say they are. In any case,
                thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
                >
                > Cao i hocu!
                > Aida

                Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
                authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
                among us anymore.



                Zdravo opet!

                I had some time to work on a possible Bosnian Tengwar mode, so I was wondering whether it would be possible to send it to you personally as an attachment so that you can review it and let me know if I made mistakes in the process.

                Hvala i pozdrav!
                Aida



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