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Re: [elfscript] Re: Difference in tengwa for english and quenya modes

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  • Aida Djikic
    ... [...] ... It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The Lord of
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 7 2:54 AM
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      calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Estel" <nnsaeed@h...> wrote:
      [...]
      > Then I noticed that some of the letters are
      > used for completely different sounds in the english mode...with
      > reference to the chart of letters in the Tengwar Reader I - Rev.
      > 1.01. For example, Umbar is written for use as the letter 'b' in
      > the Tengwar Reader I, Anga for 'j', calma for 'ch', ungwe for 'g'.
      > These differences I can uderstand because they are very minor, but
      > there are others that are completely different: hwesta for 'kh',
      > unque for 'gh', vala for 'w', nwalme for 'ng', ampa for 'v'. Is
      > there a reason for these differences, or are they mistakes, or are
      > they correct.
      > Please do enlighten me because I am now very confused and no longer
      > confident in transcribing english OR quenya...
      > help???
      > -Estel

      It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The
      prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The
      Lord of the Rings. Further, I personally quite like Chris's guide:

      http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/4th-200.pdf

      Since English has both palatal and velar sounds, the Tengwar table
      for English is accommodated to it (calmat�ma for palatals, quesset�ma
      for velars) BUT neither Sindarin nor Quenya have palatal sounds, so
      calmat�ma is used for velars and quesset�ma for labio-alveolars. It
      is very well explained by Dan Smith here, I think:

      http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/index.htm

      So, to be short, every single language has its own "breakdown" of
      sounds in the Tengwar table as well as it has an own mode for writing
      in Tengwar. So it is not much (if at all) appropriate to write
      English words in modes for other languages.

      Got it? :)

      Lucy





      Hello,

      my name is Aida, I'm from Bosnia and I'm new to this group. It's been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a question for Lucy. I was wondering whether there is a mode for Slavic languages because I sometimes find it hard to write Bosnian with modes for either English or Sindarin. Can you help?

      Thank you in advance, Aida

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    • calwen76
      ... been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a question for Lucy. I
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 7 5:00 AM
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
        > Hello,
        >
        > my name is Aida, I'm from Bosnia and I'm new to this group. It's
        been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar
        and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a
        question for Lucy. I was wondering whether there is a mode for
        Slavic languages because I sometimes find it hard to write Bosnian
        with modes for either English or Sindarin. Can you help?
        >
        > Thank you in advance, Aida


        Dobro došla, Aida!

        Mm, as I said, it's quite impossible to write a language X in a mode
        for language Y :-))

        Well, I've tried to think out a 'mode' for Czech (and paralelly to
        Serbian that I can speak a bit). I've found out that a full mode
        would fit the best since an omatehtar mode would collide with a
        problem of +/- equal percentage of vowel and consonant representation
        in Slavic languages. But, the important thing is that I am no way an
        authority here or there to say this is the right way to write Slavic
        languages in Tengwar :-)). If you're interested, I can piece my ideas
        together and send my suggestions - and as soon as you get more
        familiar with the Tengwar, you can try to think out another solution,
        hm? :-)

        Ćao i uživaj!
        Lucy
      • Aida Djikic
        calwen76 wrote: Dobro došla, Aida! Mm, as I said, it s quite impossible to write a language X in a mode for language Y :-)) Well, I ve
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 8 10:51 AM
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          calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:

          Dobro do�la, Aida!

          Mm, as I said, it's quite impossible to write a language X in a mode
          for language Y :-))

          Well, I've tried to think out a 'mode' for Czech (and paralelly to
          Serbian that I can speak a bit). I've found out that a full mode
          would fit the best since an omatehtar mode would collide with a
          problem of +/- equal percentage of vowel and consonant representation
          in Slavic languages. But, the important thing is that I am no way an
          authority here or there to say this is the right way to write Slavic
          languages in Tengwar :-)). If you're interested, I can piece my ideas
          together and send my suggestions - and as soon as you get more
          familiar with the Tengwar, you can try to think out another solution,
          hm? :-)

          �ao i u�ivaj!
          Lucy



          Hvala, Lucy!

          I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case, thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

          Cao i hocu!
          Aida




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        • Arden R. Smith
          I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch s book, _Elbisch_, and something on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of which the
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 8 8:37 PM
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            I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and something
            on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of
            which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen" (Qu.
            _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
            _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, but
            where did this _hwarma_ come from? The word appears in _The
            Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p. 386),
            but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any reference
            whatsoever to the tengwar.

            Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section (p.
            286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
            Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar (in
            writing)"].

            However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke that
            closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I know)
            any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings, published or
            unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this idea?
            Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

            This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general: he
            frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information without
            any indication that they are just that. At least he gives references
            to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his information.


            ***************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
            --Elvish proverb

            ***************************************************
          • calwen76
            ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I m still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 9 2:46 AM
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
              > Hvala, Lucy!
              >
              > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
              if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny
              who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the
              Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean
              representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case,
              thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
              >
              > Cao i hocu!
              > Aida

              Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
              authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
              among us anymore.

              Concerning ómatehtar: no, ómatehtar are signs for vowels written out
              above or below the tengwar in tehta modes (as seen for example in the
              King's Letter I and III, SD:130,131). In full modes (for expample,
              the Moria Gate transcription), vowels are written with tengwar (as
              the consonants are). Full modes can also include tehtar signs e.g.
              the sign called _andaith_ (long mark - used for prolonging the vowel,
              e.g. _á_) - but these are not ómatehtar. In short: ómatehtar are
              signs for vowels in tehta modes.

              Hope I made myself clear. If you'd be interested, here is my guide to
              Tengwar (in Czech):

              http://sweb.cz/calwen.rudh/tengwar.htm

              Pozdravljam,
              Lucy
            • laurifindil
              ... something ... elements of ... (Qu. ... but ... The word appears in _The ... 386), ... reference ... (p. ... (in ... that ... know) ... published or ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 11 6:33 AM
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Arden R. Smith <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                >
                > I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and
                something
                > on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three
                elements of
                > which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen"
                (Qu.
                > _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
                > _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_,
                but
                > where did this _hwarma_ come from?
                The word appears in _The
                > Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p.
                386),
                > but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any
                reference
                > whatsoever to the tengwar.
                >
                > Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section
                (p.
                > 286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
                > Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar
                (in
                > writing)"].
                >
                > However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke
                that
                > closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I
                know)
                > any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings,
                published or
                > unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this
                idea?
                > Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

                Comes from ? From his poor imagination... indeed, I guess.

                > This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general:
                he
                > frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information
                without
                > any indication that they are just that. At least he gives
                references
                > to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his
                information.

                Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
                book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
                see amloth/ambalotse.

                E. Kloczko
              • Arden R. Smith
                ... I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information second-hand, but thanks for the proof! ***************************************************
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 11 9:04 AM
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                  On Sep 11, 2004, at 6:33 AM, laurifindil wrote:

                  > Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
                  > book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
                  > see amloth/ambalotse.

                  I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information
                  second-hand, but thanks for the proof!


                  ***************************************************
                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                  Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                  --Elvish proverb

                  ***************************************************
                • Aida Djikic
                  ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many who would say they are. In any case, thank you for the offer, I m looking forward to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 29 10:58 AM
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                    calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:


                    > Hvala, Lucy!
                    >
                    > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
                    if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many
                    who would say they are. In any case,
                    thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
                    >
                    > Cao i hocu!
                    > Aida

                    Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
                    authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
                    among us anymore.



                    Zdravo opet!

                    I had some time to work on a possible Bosnian Tengwar mode, so I was wondering whether it would be possible to send it to you personally as an attachment so that you can review it and let me know if I made mistakes in the process.

                    Hvala i pozdrav!
                    Aida



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