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Difference in tengwa for english and quenya modes

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  • Estel
    I recently started practicing transcribing english into tengwar, using the mode for english. Then I remembered a phrase I translated a while back into quenya,
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
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      I recently started practicing transcribing english into tengwar,
      using the mode for english. Then I remembered a phrase I translated
      a while back into quenya, and wanted to transcribe that aswell. So
      I printed off "Mellonath Daeron - Tengwar Guides - Per Lindberg's
      great guides to both Quenya and Sindarin Tengwar modes" and used the
      chart on the last page. Then I noticed that some of the letters are
      used for completely different sounds in the english mode...with
      reference to the chart of letters in the Tengwar Reader I - Rev.
      1.01. For example, Umbar is written for use as the letter 'b' in
      the Tengwar Reader I, Anga for 'j', calma for 'ch', ungwe for 'g'.
      These differences I can uderstand because they are very minor, but
      there are others that are completely different: hwesta for 'kh',
      unque for 'gh', vala for 'w', nwalme for 'ng', ampa for 'v'. Is
      there a reason for these differences, or are they mistakes, or are
      they correct.
      Please do enlighten me because I am now very confused and no longer
      confident in transcribing english OR quenya...
      help???
      -Estel
    • calwen76
      ... [...] ... It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The Lord of
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Estel" <nnsaeed@h...> wrote:
        [...]
        > Then I noticed that some of the letters are
        > used for completely different sounds in the english mode...with
        > reference to the chart of letters in the Tengwar Reader I - Rev.
        > 1.01. For example, Umbar is written for use as the letter 'b' in
        > the Tengwar Reader I, Anga for 'j', calma for 'ch', ungwe for 'g'.
        > These differences I can uderstand because they are very minor, but
        > there are others that are completely different: hwesta for 'kh',
        > unque for 'gh', vala for 'w', nwalme for 'ng', ampa for 'v'. Is
        > there a reason for these differences, or are they mistakes, or are
        > they correct.
        > Please do enlighten me because I am now very confused and no longer
        > confident in transcribing english OR quenya...
        > help???
        > -Estel

        It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The
        prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The
        Lord of the Rings. Further, I personally quite like Chris's guide:

        http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/4th-200.pdf

        Since English has both palatal and velar sounds, the Tengwar table
        for English is accommodated to it (calmatéma for palatals, quessetéma
        for velars) BUT neither Sindarin nor Quenya have palatal sounds, so
        calmatéma is used for velars and quessetéma for labio-alveolars. It
        is very well explained by Dan Smith here, I think:

        http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/index.htm

        So, to be short, every single language has its own "breakdown" of
        sounds in the Tengwar table as well as it has an own mode for writing
        in Tengwar. So it is not much (if at all) appropriate to write
        English words in modes for other languages.

        Got it? :)

        Lucy
      • Aida Djikic
        ... [...] ... It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The Lord of
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 7, 2004
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          calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Estel" <nnsaeed@h...> wrote:
          [...]
          > Then I noticed that some of the letters are
          > used for completely different sounds in the english mode...with
          > reference to the chart of letters in the Tengwar Reader I - Rev.
          > 1.01. For example, Umbar is written for use as the letter 'b' in
          > the Tengwar Reader I, Anga for 'j', calma for 'ch', ungwe for 'g'.
          > These differences I can uderstand because they are very minor, but
          > there are others that are completely different: hwesta for 'kh',
          > unque for 'gh', vala for 'w', nwalme for 'ng', ampa for 'v'. Is
          > there a reason for these differences, or are they mistakes, or are
          > they correct.
          > Please do enlighten me because I am now very confused and no longer
          > confident in transcribing english OR quenya...
          > help???
          > -Estel

          It is because Quenya/Sindarin and English use different sounds. The
          prime source for an explanation can be found in the Appendix E of The
          Lord of the Rings. Further, I personally quite like Chris's guide:

          http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/4th-200.pdf

          Since English has both palatal and velar sounds, the Tengwar table
          for English is accommodated to it (calmat�ma for palatals, quesset�ma
          for velars) BUT neither Sindarin nor Quenya have palatal sounds, so
          calmat�ma is used for velars and quesset�ma for labio-alveolars. It
          is very well explained by Dan Smith here, I think:

          http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/index.htm

          So, to be short, every single language has its own "breakdown" of
          sounds in the Tengwar table as well as it has an own mode for writing
          in Tengwar. So it is not much (if at all) appropriate to write
          English words in modes for other languages.

          Got it? :)

          Lucy





          Hello,

          my name is Aida, I'm from Bosnia and I'm new to this group. It's been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a question for Lucy. I was wondering whether there is a mode for Slavic languages because I sometimes find it hard to write Bosnian with modes for either English or Sindarin. Can you help?

          Thank you in advance, Aida

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        • calwen76
          ... been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a question for Lucy. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 7, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
            > Hello,
            >
            > my name is Aida, I'm from Bosnia and I'm new to this group. It's
            been a couple of months since I started practicing writing Tengwar
            and reading posts on this list to learn more. Now I also have a
            question for Lucy. I was wondering whether there is a mode for
            Slavic languages because I sometimes find it hard to write Bosnian
            with modes for either English or Sindarin. Can you help?
            >
            > Thank you in advance, Aida


            Dobro došla, Aida!

            Mm, as I said, it's quite impossible to write a language X in a mode
            for language Y :-))

            Well, I've tried to think out a 'mode' for Czech (and paralelly to
            Serbian that I can speak a bit). I've found out that a full mode
            would fit the best since an omatehtar mode would collide with a
            problem of +/- equal percentage of vowel and consonant representation
            in Slavic languages. But, the important thing is that I am no way an
            authority here or there to say this is the right way to write Slavic
            languages in Tengwar :-)). If you're interested, I can piece my ideas
            together and send my suggestions - and as soon as you get more
            familiar with the Tengwar, you can try to think out another solution,
            hm? :-)

            Ćao i uživaj!
            Lucy
          • Aida Djikic
            calwen76 wrote: Dobro došla, Aida! Mm, as I said, it s quite impossible to write a language X in a mode for language Y :-)) Well, I ve
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 8, 2004
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              calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:

              Dobro do�la, Aida!

              Mm, as I said, it's quite impossible to write a language X in a mode
              for language Y :-))

              Well, I've tried to think out a 'mode' for Czech (and paralelly to
              Serbian that I can speak a bit). I've found out that a full mode
              would fit the best since an omatehtar mode would collide with a
              problem of +/- equal percentage of vowel and consonant representation
              in Slavic languages. But, the important thing is that I am no way an
              authority here or there to say this is the right way to write Slavic
              languages in Tengwar :-)). If you're interested, I can piece my ideas
              together and send my suggestions - and as soon as you get more
              familiar with the Tengwar, you can try to think out another solution,
              hm? :-)

              �ao i u�ivaj!
              Lucy



              Hvala, Lucy!

              I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case, thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

              Cao i hocu!
              Aida




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            • Arden R. Smith
              I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch s book, _Elbisch_, and something on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of which the
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 8, 2004
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                I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and something
                on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three elements of
                which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen" (Qu.
                _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
                _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_, but
                where did this _hwarma_ come from? The word appears in _The
                Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p. 386),
                but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any reference
                whatsoever to the tengwar.

                Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section (p.
                286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
                Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar (in
                writing)"].

                However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke that
                closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I know)
                any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings, published or
                unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this idea?
                Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

                This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general: he
                frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information without
                any indication that they are just that. At least he gives references
                to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his information.


                ***************************************************
                Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                --Elvish proverb

                ***************************************************
              • calwen76
                ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny who would say they are. I m still at the stage of memorizing the Tengwar names and
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 9, 2004
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:
                  > Hvala, Lucy!
                  >
                  > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
                  if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are mabny
                  who would say they are. I'm still at the stage of memorizing the
                  Tengwar names and terminology. If I'm correcet, omatehtar would mean
                  representing vowels as full letters, is that right? In any case,
                  thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
                  >
                  > Cao i hocu!
                  > Aida

                  Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
                  authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
                  among us anymore.

                  Concerning ómatehtar: no, ómatehtar are signs for vowels written out
                  above or below the tengwar in tehta modes (as seen for example in the
                  King's Letter I and III, SD:130,131). In full modes (for expample,
                  the Moria Gate transcription), vowels are written with tengwar (as
                  the consonants are). Full modes can also include tehtar signs e.g.
                  the sign called _andaith_ (long mark - used for prolonging the vowel,
                  e.g. _á_) - but these are not ómatehtar. In short: ómatehtar are
                  signs for vowels in tehta modes.

                  Hope I made myself clear. If you'd be interested, here is my guide to
                  Tengwar (in Czech):

                  http://sweb.cz/calwen.rudh/tengwar.htm

                  Pozdravljam,
                  Lucy
                • laurifindil
                  ... something ... elements of ... (Qu. ... but ... The word appears in _The ... 386), ... reference ... (p. ... (in ... that ... know) ... published or ...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Arden R. Smith <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I was recently reading Helmut W. Pesch's book, _Elbisch_, and
                    something
                    > on p. 184 struck me as very odd. Pesch describes the three
                    elements of
                    > which the tengwar are comprised as "Stamm" (Qu. _telco_), "Bogen"
                    (Qu.
                    > _lúva_), and "Querbalken" (Qu. _hwarma_). The _telco_ (stem) and
                    > _lúva_ (bow) are known from Appendix E to _The Lord of the Rings_,
                    but
                    > where did this _hwarma_ come from?
                    The word appears in _The
                    > Etymologies_, of course, in the entry SKWAR- (_The Lost Road_, p.
                    386),
                    > but there it is glossed simply as "crossbar", without any
                    reference
                    > whatsoever to the tengwar.
                    >
                    > Pesch repeats this information in his Quenya dictionary section
                    (p.
                    > 286), where he glosses _hwarma_ as "Querholz, Sprosse. _Ling._
                    > Querbalken (der Schrift)" [i.e. "crossbeam, rung. _Ling._ crossbar
                    (in
                    > writing)"].
                    >
                    > However convenient it might be to apply this word to the stroke
                    that
                    > closes the bow of a Feanorian letter, there is not (as far as I
                    know)
                    > any justification of this anywhere in Tolkien's writings,
                    published or
                    > unpublished. Does anyone know where Pesch might have got this
                    idea?
                    > Or is it just something that he dreamed up himself?

                    Comes from ? From his poor imagination... indeed, I guess.

                    > This, I think, is the greatest flaw of Pesch's book in general:
                    he
                    > frequently presents modified forms and hypothetical information
                    without
                    > any indication that they are just that. At least he gives
                    references
                    > to the primary materials, so readers can double-check his
                    information.

                    Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
                    book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
                    see amloth/ambalotse.

                    E. Kloczko
                  • Arden R. Smith
                    ... I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information second-hand, but thanks for the proof! ***************************************************
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 11, 2004
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                      On Sep 11, 2004, at 6:33 AM, laurifindil wrote:

                      > Not quite, he apparently did not read the primary materials. His
                      > book have the same page errors that in one of Helge's Dictionnary...
                      > see amloth/ambalotse.

                      I suspected that he got most (if not all) of his information
                      second-hand, but thanks for the proof!


                      ***************************************************
                      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                      Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                      --Elvish proverb

                      ***************************************************
                    • Aida Djikic
                      ... if you re not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many who would say they are. In any case, thank you for the offer, I m looking forward to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 29, 2004
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                        calwen76 <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:
                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Aida Djikic <aidadjikic@y...> wrote:


                        > Hvala, Lucy!
                        >
                        > I would be very interested to see what have you come up with, even
                        if you're not an authority in this matter. I doubt there are many
                        who would say they are. In any case,
                        thank you for the offer, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
                        >
                        > Cao i hocu!
                        > Aida

                        Okay, give me some time and I'll work on it :) And, the only
                        authority is in fact Proffessor Tolkien only... unfortunately not
                        among us anymore.



                        Zdravo opet!

                        I had some time to work on a possible Bosnian Tengwar mode, so I was wondering whether it would be possible to send it to you personally as an attachment so that you can review it and let me know if I made mistakes in the process.

                        Hvala i pozdrav!
                        Aida



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