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Re: [elfscript] Thoughts on Tengwar. Heed thy eyes! List you sin! kidding :-)

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  • Graham McArthur
    ... This is my first post to this list and I just had to come out of lurking for the above. errr...I don t wish to be rude, but are you sure you know what you
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 2, 2002
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      netdnd wrote:
       Tengwar and the writings are all fairly new, A very pretty written
      language, but a troubled translation into english. Im no master at it
      myself but I do enjoy it for its history in LOTR.

      I always here how people say how its so hard to learn and how its
      next to impossible to master. And yes indeed it is, but remeber its a
      fantasy language, made up Mubo-Jumbo from a great writer, although he
      put thought into it, I dont suspect Tolkien put much of thought into
      the language as his fans would take into it and try to master it. Nor
      do i think you could put down an a job application as Elven as your
      second language, although that would be very cool.

      I dont belive the language is complete in one sense, Elves being such
      an advance race with rich songs, and poetry and a deep immersive
      langage only to find out how horribly worded it can be just to
      describe something.

      I dont see the purpose as to learning it and mastering it, but to
      consider more of an art form and enjoying it for what it is, such as
      making it into a tattoo, a cool greeting card or making an elven name
      plaqe on your front desk.

      Although when you do master Tengwar? Do you plan on learning Kligon
      next? Or the mating calls of a Chewbaca. Now that couldprove useful
      on a job app as well :-D
       
       

      This is my first post to this list and I just had to come out of lurking for the above.
      errr...I don't wish to be rude, but are you sure you know what you are saying?
      I mean you have made some statements here that would indicate you have little knowledge of Tengwar and the Elvish languages.

      "...but remeber its a
      fantasy language, made up Mubo-Jumbo from a great writer, although he
      put thought into it, I dont suspect Tolkien put much of thought into
      the language as his fans would take into it and try to master it."

      Mumbo-Jumbo???? Not much thought????

      This is laughable, and you can not be serious, surely?

      Regards,
      Graham
       
       
       
       
       
       

    • Graham McArthur
      ... Sulaid, Well, please re-read my post. Firstly I did not claim Elvish as non fiction, although many philologists consider it to be real enough. Secondly, I
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 2, 2002
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        Enigma wrote:
         Its fictional, not real, if you take it as a second language, then your like a star trek fan who follows the code of Spock.. Please he created it out of pure imagination, not fact.


        Sulaid,
        Well, please re-read my post. Firstly I did not claim Elvish as non fiction, although many philologists consider it to be real enough. Secondly, I did not claim it as a second language.

        Tolkien knew what he was doing, his Elvish languages are not mumbo jumbo. Having sketched a "primitive Elvish" language, he cleverly devised sound-shifts that would produce a tongue with the desired flavour: Quenya resulted from his teenage romance with Finnish; in his own words he was, "quite intoxicated" by the sound and style of this language when he discovered it. However, it should be emphasized that Finnish was an inspiration only. Quenya is in no way a garbled version of Finnish, and only a few words of its vocabulary display any semblance to the corresponding Finnish words. Tolkien also used Greek and Latin as inspirations, as well as Spanish.
        We certainly can't sit down and readily translate the works of Shakespeare into Quenya, but we do know many thousands words and we know the general outlines of the grammar Tolkien envisioned. Still, you cannot really become "fluent" in Quenya. Not yet. There are still many thousands of pages of Tolkien’s manuscripts yet to be published on Elvish.

        Much of the Quenya vocabulary is not wholly "original." Tolkien readily admitted that the vocabularies of his "Elvish" languages were "inevitably full of...reminiscences" of pre-existing tongues. Though its not obvious, the fact remains that the knowledgeable easily discern Indo-European (and sometimes even Semitic) words and stems underlying many of Tolkien's "invented" words. He noted that "it is impossible in constructing imaginary languages from a limited number if component sounds to avoid such resemblances"  adding that he did not even try to avoid them.

        Structurally speaking, Finnish provided considerable inspiration not only for the sound-patterns, but for the basic structure as well. Tolkien described Quenya as a "highly inflected language". That means, that words appear in many different forms depending on their precise function in any given grammatical context. The differing forms are for the most part constructed by employing endings. Endings with meanings that in English would often be expressed as separate words instead. Hence an English translation of a Quenya text will normally consist of more words than the Quenya original.

        Very little of the work Tolkien did on the language has been made available to us. Even so what we do have makes this the most complete and detailed artificial language ever constructed. This is not made up mumbo jumbo, this is as close to a real living language that is possible.

        Any natural language has a phonology, a set of rules defining the sounds that are used, how they vary and behave, and how they can be combined. This goes for any well-made invented language as well. Quenya is most definitely not a haphazard jumble of sounds. Tolkien carefully constructed its phonology  both as an evolving entity (classical Quenya gradually developing from Primitive Elvish) and as a "fixed" form (defining the kind of Quenya that was used as a language of lore and ceremony in Middle-earth). None of the sounds used in Quenya are particularly exotic from a European viewpoint, but they are combined in an exquisitely tidy manner. Compared to Tolkien's Elvish, many "real" languages appear rather clumsy & messy.

        Almein,
        Graham

         
         

      • Enigma
        Its fictional, not real, if you take it as a second language, then your like a star trek fan who follows the code of Spock.. Please he created it out of pure
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 4, 2002
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          Its fictional, not real, if you take it as a second language, then your like a star trek fan who follows the code of Spock..
           
          Please he created it out of pure imagination, not fact.
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [elfscript] Thoughts on Tengwar. Heed thy eyes! List you sin! kidding :-)

          netdnd wrote:
           Tengwar and the writings are all fairly new, A very pretty written
          language, but a troubled translation into english. Im no master at it
          myself but I do enjoy it for its history in LOTR.

          I always here how people say how its so hard to learn and how its
          next to impossible to master. And yes indeed it is, but remeber its a
          fantasy language, made up Mubo-Jumbo from a great writer, although he
          put thought into it, I dont suspect Tolkien put much of thought into
          the language as his fans would take into it and try to master it. Nor
          do i think you could put down an a job application as Elven as your
          second language, although that would be very cool.

          I dont belive the language is complete in one sense, Elves being such
          an advance race with rich songs, and poetry and a deep immersive
          langage only to find out how horribly worded it can be just to
          describe something.

          I dont see the purpose as to learning it and mastering it, but to
          consider more of an art form and enjoying it for what it is, such as
          making it into a tattoo, a cool greeting card or making an elven name
          plaqe on your front desk.

          Although when you do master Tengwar? Do you plan on learning Kligon
          next? Or the mating calls of a Chewbaca. Now that couldprove useful
          on a job app as well :-D
           
           

          This is my first post to this list and I just had to come out of lurking for the above.
          errr...I don't wish to be rude, but are you sure you know what you are saying?
          I mean you have made some statements here that would indicate you have little knowledge of Tengwar and the Elvish languages.

          "...but remeber its a
          fantasy language, made up Mubo-Jumbo from a great writer, although he
          put thought into it, I dont suspect Tolkien put much of thought into
          the language as his fans would take into it and try to master it."

          Mumbo-Jumbo???? Not much thought????

          This is laughable, and you can not be serious, surely?

          Regards,
          Graham
           
           
           
           
           
           

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