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Re: OT: Raspberries [was: The "following Y" tehta: above or below?]

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  • calwen76
    ... second ... 21- ... Can t ... more than a ... called ... am Texan, ... convention ... idiotic ... solstice, known ... I m a Slav and we have other
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
      > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:
      >
      > > Since my very childhood I was taught that Fall begins in the
      second
      > > half of September (at least here, in my country, it's around the
      21-
      > > 23). I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it.
      Can't
      > > help it?
      >
      > In Helge's defence, since *my* early childhood, and indeed, for
      more than a
      > thousand years, Autumn had begun on the first of August, sometimes
      called
      > Mabon, or Lughnasadh by those influenced by Welsh traditions. I
      am Texan,
      > myself, but even I am not fool enough to follow the silly modern
      convention
      > that a season begins on its respective solstice or equinox. That
      idiotic
      > idea leads one to conclude that summer begins on the summer
      solstice, known
      > since time immemorial as MIDsummers Eve.

      I'm a Slav and we have other traditions, you know? If you're trying
      to argue, I'm not going to get involved since it reminds me the
      neverending religious bargaining.

      > > > > B) You are an ass.
      > > >
      > > > Homo Sapiens, actually. You must have seen my picture on my
      website.
      > >
      > > Well, you may be Homo Sapiens, but then I guess you're a bit
      > > disadvantaged against the rest of us, Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
      >
      > So, Mr. Hostetter flung out an insult without any clear immediate
      provocation.
      > I'll not deny that there is a history of provocation, but in this
      case he
      > does not appear to be responding to anything.

      Oh, really? Search the Elfscript and Elfling-d archives (December or
      so) for very concrete posts of Mr. Fauskanger.

      > Then, Mr. Fauskanger responds with self deprecating humour. A
      reasonable and
      > polite response, though no response at all might have been better.

      Nothing but your opinion.

      > Then Lucy, calwen76, (forgive me, but I do not know your name
      beyond that)

      Lucie Holá, for your peaceful dreams. Lucy has been my nick since my
      16.

      > feels a need to fan these flames.

      This is _exactly_ what I think of Helge's post - if you don't see
      his post needless and provoking, I do. He had no reason to do so and
      yet he's done so.

      > This all makes me sick.
      >
      >
      > I've been reading elfling, elfscript, and other mailing lists on
      and off for
      > four years now, but every time I start to become seriously
      interested in
      > them, you people and others have to get into a flame fest again,
      and I either
      > stop reading the lists for a while or I just unsubscribe entirely.

      If you'd be really interested, no such arguing would put you off it,
      my opinion only. I went through such stages as well though I've been
      into these groups for only a year and half, but the will to study
      Tolkien's world has always been stronger. It's your fight, sorry,
      you seem to blame us unrightfully.

      > You all do good work in analyzing Tolkiens languages, whatever
      opinions of
      > each other you may hold, and I value *all* of your writings when
      you stick to
      > the topic. But your petty bickering is counter productive and I
      have known
      > more than one person who was turned off of studying Tolkien's
      languages
      > because of the vitriol spewed forth on the lists on a regular
      basis.
      >
      > So grow up! Stop acting like 5 year old children. If you want to
      hurl
      > insults at each other like little boys throwing rocks from
      opposite sides of
      > a school yard, then please do so privately and leave the rest of
      us out of
      > it!

      Maybe one day you will be provoked as well and will find out what is
      this all about. Arguing is not a privilege of children.

      Good luck and nerv,
      Lucy (or Lucka, Lucie, Luci, Lucinda, Lucias, Luca etc. - whatever
      you want...)
    • Carl F.Hostetter
      ... Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted AUTUMN at us? Just because _you_ do not recognize an insult does not mean it does not exist; and in
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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        On Aug 7, 2004, at 12:13 AM, Eris wrote:

        > So, Mr. Hostetter flung out an insult without any clear immediate
        > provocation.
        > I'll not deny that there is a history of provocation, but in this case
        > he
        > does not appear to be responding to anything.

        Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted "AUTUMN" at us?
        Just because _you_ do not recognize an insult does not mean it does not
        exist; and in this case it was prominently deliberate. If Helge insists
        on going out of his way to be an ass in public, I am more than happy to
        acknowledge the fact, as it seems his eager purpose, and I aims to
        please.
      • Eris
        ... I did wonder, and, being at work, I searched the online archives of Elfscript, but I did not search back far enough apparently. Not finding anything I let
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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          On Saturday 07 August 2004 09:06 am, Carl F.Hostetter wrote:

          > Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted "AUTUMN" at us?

          I did wonder, and, being at work, I searched the online archives of Elfscript,
          but I did not search back far enough apparently. Not finding anything I let
          it drop. As you should have done.

          Tonight, searching my own personal archive of the messages, I was able to find
          Mr. Fauskangers posts from January that started this. (For those interested,
          look for the subject "Pre-classical Tengwar Mode",) You know what? He was
          right. He was wrong to taunt you for it, but he was right about the timing
          of the issue. (And perhaps he was merely poking fun at you in jest, but I
          rather expect not.)

          For the record, I myself have no complaints about the publication schedule. I
          once published a monthly newsletter for a non-profit organization and am
          familiar with the problems and annoyances that can come up while trying to
          write, edit, print, and mail out a small publication on an effectively
          volunteer basis. (It seems to me that the subscription payments cannot begin
          to pay for all the time that goes into preparing each issue of VT.) I can
          only imagine how much more work must go into preparing something that must
          meet scholarly standards. The proofreading alone must be quite tedious,
          seeing as how the subject matter makes a mispelled word a critical occurence.
          Whatever I may say regarding your dealings with Mr. Fauskkanger, you have my
          utmost respect for the work you do with VT.

          > If Helge insists on going out of his way to be an ass in public,
          > I am more than happy to acknowledge the fact, as it seems his eager
          > purpose, and I aims to please.

          Try letting him be such in public without yourself being one in return.
          Ugh, I'm about to sound like my Mother. If someone taunts you or insults you,
          then just ignore him. He wanted to get you to respond or else he'd have said
          nothing. By responding, you did exactly what he wanted you to do.

          At some point, the cycle of insults must stop, and it can happen in two ways.
          Either one of you will move on to other things and will stop posting on a
          regular basis, or one of you will decide to stop responding in kind when an
          insult is given. Based on the history of this feud, I expect the former, but
          I still hope for the later.

          Eris Caffee
        • Eris
          ... Perhaps, then, Mr. Fauskanger has other traditions as well, you know? ... I won t argue it either. From a practical standpoint, the dates and even the
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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            On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
            > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:

            On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
            > I'm a Slav and we have other traditions, you know?

            Perhaps, then, Mr. Fauskanger has other traditions as well, you know?

            > If you're trying to argue, I'm not going to get involved since it reminds
            > me the neverending religious bargaining.

            I won't argue it either. From a practical standpoint, the dates and even the
            number of the seasons varies from place to place. When is autumn in the
            Sahara desert? :-)

            But with regard to the date of the start of Autmun, you said:

            > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:
            > > > I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it. Can't
            > > > help it?

            That, to my mind, is "trying to argue". And that why I objected.


            On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
            > Oh, really? Search the Elfscript and Elfling-d archives (December or
            > so) for very concrete posts of Mr. Fauskanger.

            I searched my archive and found the thread in question. The first post was
            dated January 12, 2003. (I had previously searched the Yahoo archive, but
            its limited search functions made this awkward and I only searched back a
            couple of months. When Mr. Fauskanger posted his message this past Monday,
            the matter simply seemed to trivial to put much effort into. Only the
            responses of yourself and Mr. Hostetter changed this by virtue of making me
            angry at the senselessness of it all.)

            Now, having found the original thread to which Mr. Fauskanger was referring, I
            have to admit that there was a "clear immediate provocation" for Mr.
            Hostetters response. I apologize to you both for my error in that regard.

            Nonetheless, my assessment of the reactions to that provocation remain valid.
            No good has come of this. It only serves to distract all from the prupose of
            the Elfscript list, and further incite animosity between some of the most
            prominent members of the Tolkienian linguistics community.


            On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:

            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
            > > Then, Mr. Fauskanger responds with self deprecating humour. A
            > > reasonable and polite response, though no response at all might have
            > > been better.

            > Nothing but your opinion.

            I'll not deny that it is my opinion, but I will dare to claim that that others
            also would support it. Mr. Fauskanger responded with a joke indicating that
            his photo on his website makes him look like an ass. That is
            self-deprecating humour and I doubt you'll find many who will disagree. I
            also doubt you'll find any lack of people who think that that best response
            would have been silence.


            > Lucie Holá, for your peaceful dreams.

            Hail Lucie Holá! Met in adversity, may we never cross (s)words again. :-)


            > This is _exactly_ what I think of Helge's post - if you don't see
            > his post needless and provoking, I do.

            Now knowing the reference, I *do* see it as "needless and provoking". And if
            it was merely an attempt at humour (for it is exactly the style of humour
            that I I would indulge in myself) then it needed some words of explanation to
            make it more obviously a gentle poke in the ribs. There is too much bad
            blood here for subtlety to be effective.

            And yet, again, a small jab like that does not deserve the response it got.
            Best to let it pass uncommented.


            On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
            > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:

            > If you'd be really interested, no such arguing would put you off it,
            > my opinion only. I went through such stages as well though I've been
            > into these groups for only a year and half, but the will to study
            > Tolkien's world has always been stronger. It's your fight, sorry,
            > you seem to blame us unrightfully.

            You misunderstood me. I have never stopped studying Tolkien's world, but have
            only sometimes stopped reading Elfscript and Elfling. Between the flame
            threads and the endless "translate my name" and "how do I write that" posts,
            there is often little material of value to be found on the lists. So when I
            get fed up with it, I usually just stop reading the email lists and spend
            more time reading Tolkien himself. I'm no linguist, so my own attempts at
            interpreting his languages fall far short of the excellent work of Misters
            Hostetter and Fauskanger, but sometimes the signal to noise ratio is far
            higher in my own meager analyses.


            > Maybe one day you will be provoked as well and will find out what is
            > this all about. Arguing is not a privilege of children.

            Ah. I make no claim of innocence. I've been on the Internet since 1989 and
            have been in my fair share of flame wars, on Usenet, web message boards, and
            email lists alike. In general I've grown quite weary of such arguments,
            because I've seen how much useful effect they have: none. I do, though,
            have a short temper, so as much as I regret it, I still find myself getting
            drawn into things sometimes. This thread is such an instance. I had gone
            for years without complaining about the CH-HF war (I think I did once give it
            a small mention in one of my rare Elfling posts about 2 years ago) but for
            some reason this latest flare up got me so irate that I posted.

            I do regret it now, because I know that it will do no good. Any rivalry that
            has gone on for so long will not be dinted by any words I can say.

            So that is what this is all about: a lurker who got irritated enough to say
            something for a change instead of silently ignoring the daily rantings of the
            Internet.

            I'm going to take my own advice now and be silent. If anyone has specific
            questions that I think might actually benefit the list, I'll answer on the
            list. Otherwise, I'll answer privately. I've said what I wanted to say, my
            anger has passed, and I think that if I speak further then I will simply be
            "fanning the flames" myself.

            Eris Caffee



            >
            > Good luck and nerv,
            > Lucy (or Lucka, Lucie, Luci, Lucinda, Lucias, Luca etc. - whatever
            > you want...)

            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Carl F.Hostetter
            ... Er, NO, he wasn t. And from his desperate attempt to redefine autumn for the rest of the world in order to _be_ right springs his assitude.
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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              On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Eris wrote:

              > You know what? He was right.

              Er, NO, he wasn't. And from his desperate attempt to redefine "autumn"
              for the rest of the world in order to _be_ "right" springs his
              assitude.
            • Carl F.Hostetter
              ... So you say. You seem to think that everyone in these forums has had exactly the same history and experiences as you and must accept the same received
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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                On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:19 PM, Eris wrote:

                > Nonetheless, my assessment of the reactions to that provocation remain
                > valid.

                So you say. You seem to think that everyone in these forums has had
                exactly the same history and experiences as you and must accept the
                same received wisdom that you espouse. You seem unable to suppose that
                your claimed "correct way" has been tried, and failed. I dare say I've
                been in these forums considerably longer than most anyone else around,
                and in fact, I was silent in the face of the endless taunts of Helge,
                Salo, Star, et al. for a very long time, and you know what? It only
                served to let them feel they could slander us with impunity, and their
                lies became the received truth. Why? Because no one could be bothered
                to question their assertions or to call an ass an ass. So your
                assertedly superior way was long ago tried and proven to be a big fat
                failure. Now I'm doing it _my_ way, and will continue to do so, so long
                as Helge and his ilk keep up _their_ ways.

                YOU could do some good by calling Helge an ass when he is being one,
                instead of making excuses for him, which will IN FACT only encourage
                him. So long as you and your kind continue to ameliorate the
                environment for Helge's taunts and tactics, he will continue to avail
                himself of it. If you and others would do as I do, or as Lucy has had
                the discernment and sense to do, to see Helge for what he is and to
                make the environment hostile to his provocations and rhetoric, then you
                really might make a change for the better.


                --
                =============================================
                Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                Ars longa, vita brevis.
                The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
              • ravenduongladash
                Speaking of showing _ass_itude? [perhaps you meant _assuetude_, _assiduate_?] I was beginning to think the great Carl had reformed and had taken his vitriol
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 22, 2004
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                  Speaking of showing _ass_itude? [perhaps you meant _assuetude_,
                  _assiduate_?]
                  I was beginning to think the great Carl had reformed and had taken
                  his vitriol elsewhere.

                  caio
                  Graeme

                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F.Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Eris wrote:
                  >
                  > > You know what? He was right.
                  >
                  > Er, NO, he wasn't. And from his desperate attempt to
                  redefine "autumn"
                  > for the rest of the world in order to _be_ "right" springs his
                  > assitude.
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