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Re: OT: Raspberries [was: The "following Y" tehta: above or below?]

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  • calwen76
    ... you were ... Delicious! Since my very childhood I was taught that Fall begins in the second half of September (at least here, in my country, it s around
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 6, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
      <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
      > Carl F.Hostetter wrote:
      > > A) August is in fact a SUMMER month.
      >
      > Of course it's not _lasselanta_, but it's definitely _yávie_! If
      you were
      > here I'd let you taste raspberries from my own garden. Uhm!
      Delicious!

      Since my very childhood I was taught that Fall begins in the second
      half of September (at least here, in my country, it's around the 21-
      23). I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it. Can't
      help it?

      > > B) You are an ass.
      >
      > Homo Sapiens, actually. You must have seen my picture on my website.

      Well, you may be Homo Sapiens, but then I guess you're a bit
      disadvantaged against the rest of us, Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

      Lucy
    • Eris
      ... In Helge s defence, since *my* early childhood, and indeed, for more than a thousand years, Autumn had begun on the first of August, sometimes called
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 6, 2004
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        On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:

        > Since my very childhood I was taught that Fall begins in the second
        > half of September (at least here, in my country, it's around the 21-
        > 23). I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it. Can't
        > help it?

        In Helge's defence, since *my* early childhood, and indeed, for more than a
        thousand years, Autumn had begun on the first of August, sometimes called
        Mabon, or Lughnasadh by those influenced by Welsh traditions. I am Texan,
        myself, but even I am not fool enough to follow the silly modern convention
        that a season begins on its respective solstice or equinox. That idiotic
        idea leads one to conclude that summer begins on the summer solstice, known
        since time immemorial as MIDsummers Eve.

        > > > B) You are an ass.
        > >
        > > Homo Sapiens, actually. You must have seen my picture on my website.
        >
        > Well, you may be Homo Sapiens, but then I guess you're a bit
        > disadvantaged against the rest of us, Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

        So, Mr. Hostetter flung out an insult without any clear immediate provocation.
        I'll not deny that there is a history of provocation, but in this case he
        does not appear to be responding to anything. If there was some private
        communication that started this, then the matter should have stayed private.

        Very *unprofessional*, Mr. Hostetter. I should expect better of you based on
        your stated goals or professionalism, but I was not surprised based on your
        observed behaviour.

        Then, Mr. Fauskanger responds with self deprecating humour. A reasonable and
        polite response, though no response at all might have been better.

        Then Lucy, calwen76, (forgive me, but I do not know your name beyond that)
        feels a need to fan these flames.


        This all makes me sick.


        I've been reading elfling, elfscript, and other mailing lists on and off for
        four years now, but every time I start to become seriously interested in
        them, you people and others have to get into a flame fest again, and I either
        stop reading the lists for a while or I just unsubscribe entirely.

        You all do good work in analyzing Tolkiens languages, whatever opinions of
        each other you may hold, and I value *all* of your writings when you stick to
        the topic. But your petty bickering is counter productive and I have known
        more than one person who was turned off of studying Tolkien's languages
        because of the vitriol spewed forth on the lists on a regular basis.

        So grow up! Stop acting like 5 year old children. If you want to hurl
        insults at each other like little boys throwing rocks from opposite sides of
        a school yard, then please do so privately and leave the rest of us out of
        it!

        Eris Caffee
      • calwen76
        ... second ... 21- ... Can t ... more than a ... called ... am Texan, ... convention ... idiotic ... solstice, known ... I m a Slav and we have other
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
          > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:
          >
          > > Since my very childhood I was taught that Fall begins in the
          second
          > > half of September (at least here, in my country, it's around the
          21-
          > > 23). I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it.
          Can't
          > > help it?
          >
          > In Helge's defence, since *my* early childhood, and indeed, for
          more than a
          > thousand years, Autumn had begun on the first of August, sometimes
          called
          > Mabon, or Lughnasadh by those influenced by Welsh traditions. I
          am Texan,
          > myself, but even I am not fool enough to follow the silly modern
          convention
          > that a season begins on its respective solstice or equinox. That
          idiotic
          > idea leads one to conclude that summer begins on the summer
          solstice, known
          > since time immemorial as MIDsummers Eve.

          I'm a Slav and we have other traditions, you know? If you're trying
          to argue, I'm not going to get involved since it reminds me the
          neverending religious bargaining.

          > > > > B) You are an ass.
          > > >
          > > > Homo Sapiens, actually. You must have seen my picture on my
          website.
          > >
          > > Well, you may be Homo Sapiens, but then I guess you're a bit
          > > disadvantaged against the rest of us, Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
          >
          > So, Mr. Hostetter flung out an insult without any clear immediate
          provocation.
          > I'll not deny that there is a history of provocation, but in this
          case he
          > does not appear to be responding to anything.

          Oh, really? Search the Elfscript and Elfling-d archives (December or
          so) for very concrete posts of Mr. Fauskanger.

          > Then, Mr. Fauskanger responds with self deprecating humour. A
          reasonable and
          > polite response, though no response at all might have been better.

          Nothing but your opinion.

          > Then Lucy, calwen76, (forgive me, but I do not know your name
          beyond that)

          Lucie Holá, for your peaceful dreams. Lucy has been my nick since my
          16.

          > feels a need to fan these flames.

          This is _exactly_ what I think of Helge's post - if you don't see
          his post needless and provoking, I do. He had no reason to do so and
          yet he's done so.

          > This all makes me sick.
          >
          >
          > I've been reading elfling, elfscript, and other mailing lists on
          and off for
          > four years now, but every time I start to become seriously
          interested in
          > them, you people and others have to get into a flame fest again,
          and I either
          > stop reading the lists for a while or I just unsubscribe entirely.

          If you'd be really interested, no such arguing would put you off it,
          my opinion only. I went through such stages as well though I've been
          into these groups for only a year and half, but the will to study
          Tolkien's world has always been stronger. It's your fight, sorry,
          you seem to blame us unrightfully.

          > You all do good work in analyzing Tolkiens languages, whatever
          opinions of
          > each other you may hold, and I value *all* of your writings when
          you stick to
          > the topic. But your petty bickering is counter productive and I
          have known
          > more than one person who was turned off of studying Tolkien's
          languages
          > because of the vitriol spewed forth on the lists on a regular
          basis.
          >
          > So grow up! Stop acting like 5 year old children. If you want to
          hurl
          > insults at each other like little boys throwing rocks from
          opposite sides of
          > a school yard, then please do so privately and leave the rest of
          us out of
          > it!

          Maybe one day you will be provoked as well and will find out what is
          this all about. Arguing is not a privilege of children.

          Good luck and nerv,
          Lucy (or Lucka, Lucie, Luci, Lucinda, Lucias, Luca etc. - whatever
          you want...)
        • Carl F.Hostetter
          ... Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted AUTUMN at us? Just because _you_ do not recognize an insult does not mean it does not exist; and in
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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            On Aug 7, 2004, at 12:13 AM, Eris wrote:

            > So, Mr. Hostetter flung out an insult without any clear immediate
            > provocation.
            > I'll not deny that there is a history of provocation, but in this case
            > he
            > does not appear to be responding to anything.

            Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted "AUTUMN" at us?
            Just because _you_ do not recognize an insult does not mean it does not
            exist; and in this case it was prominently deliberate. If Helge insists
            on going out of his way to be an ass in public, I am more than happy to
            acknowledge the fact, as it seems his eager purpose, and I aims to
            please.
          • Eris
            ... I did wonder, and, being at work, I searched the online archives of Elfscript, but I did not search back far enough apparently. Not finding anything I let
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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              On Saturday 07 August 2004 09:06 am, Carl F.Hostetter wrote:

              > Please. Did you not wonder at all why Helge shouted "AUTUMN" at us?

              I did wonder, and, being at work, I searched the online archives of Elfscript,
              but I did not search back far enough apparently. Not finding anything I let
              it drop. As you should have done.

              Tonight, searching my own personal archive of the messages, I was able to find
              Mr. Fauskangers posts from January that started this. (For those interested,
              look for the subject "Pre-classical Tengwar Mode",) You know what? He was
              right. He was wrong to taunt you for it, but he was right about the timing
              of the issue. (And perhaps he was merely poking fun at you in jest, but I
              rather expect not.)

              For the record, I myself have no complaints about the publication schedule. I
              once published a monthly newsletter for a non-profit organization and am
              familiar with the problems and annoyances that can come up while trying to
              write, edit, print, and mail out a small publication on an effectively
              volunteer basis. (It seems to me that the subscription payments cannot begin
              to pay for all the time that goes into preparing each issue of VT.) I can
              only imagine how much more work must go into preparing something that must
              meet scholarly standards. The proofreading alone must be quite tedious,
              seeing as how the subject matter makes a mispelled word a critical occurence.
              Whatever I may say regarding your dealings with Mr. Fauskkanger, you have my
              utmost respect for the work you do with VT.

              > If Helge insists on going out of his way to be an ass in public,
              > I am more than happy to acknowledge the fact, as it seems his eager
              > purpose, and I aims to please.

              Try letting him be such in public without yourself being one in return.
              Ugh, I'm about to sound like my Mother. If someone taunts you or insults you,
              then just ignore him. He wanted to get you to respond or else he'd have said
              nothing. By responding, you did exactly what he wanted you to do.

              At some point, the cycle of insults must stop, and it can happen in two ways.
              Either one of you will move on to other things and will stop posting on a
              regular basis, or one of you will decide to stop responding in kind when an
              insult is given. Based on the history of this feud, I expect the former, but
              I still hope for the later.

              Eris Caffee
            • Eris
              ... Perhaps, then, Mr. Fauskanger has other traditions as well, you know? ... I won t argue it either. From a practical standpoint, the dates and even the
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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                On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
                > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
                > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:

                On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
                > I'm a Slav and we have other traditions, you know?

                Perhaps, then, Mr. Fauskanger has other traditions as well, you know?

                > If you're trying to argue, I'm not going to get involved since it reminds
                > me the neverending religious bargaining.

                I won't argue it either. From a practical standpoint, the dates and even the
                number of the seasons varies from place to place. When is autumn in the
                Sahara desert? :-)

                But with regard to the date of the start of Autmun, you said:

                > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:
                > > > I see no reason, Helge, why you're messing about with it. Can't
                > > > help it?

                That, to my mind, is "trying to argue". And that why I objected.


                On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
                > Oh, really? Search the Elfscript and Elfling-d archives (December or
                > so) for very concrete posts of Mr. Fauskanger.

                I searched my archive and found the thread in question. The first post was
                dated January 12, 2003. (I had previously searched the Yahoo archive, but
                its limited search functions made this awkward and I only searched back a
                couple of months. When Mr. Fauskanger posted his message this past Monday,
                the matter simply seemed to trivial to put much effort into. Only the
                responses of yourself and Mr. Hostetter changed this by virtue of making me
                angry at the senselessness of it all.)

                Now, having found the original thread to which Mr. Fauskanger was referring, I
                have to admit that there was a "clear immediate provocation" for Mr.
                Hostetters response. I apologize to you both for my error in that regard.

                Nonetheless, my assessment of the reactions to that provocation remain valid.
                No good has come of this. It only serves to distract all from the prupose of
                the Elfscript list, and further incite animosity between some of the most
                prominent members of the Tolkienian linguistics community.


                On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:

                > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
                > > Then, Mr. Fauskanger responds with self deprecating humour. A
                > > reasonable and polite response, though no response at all might have
                > > been better.

                > Nothing but your opinion.

                I'll not deny that it is my opinion, but I will dare to claim that that others
                also would support it. Mr. Fauskanger responded with a joke indicating that
                his photo on his website makes him look like an ass. That is
                self-deprecating humour and I doubt you'll find many who will disagree. I
                also doubt you'll find any lack of people who think that that best response
                would have been silence.


                > Lucie Holá, for your peaceful dreams.

                Hail Lucie Holá! Met in adversity, may we never cross (s)words again. :-)


                > This is _exactly_ what I think of Helge's post - if you don't see
                > his post needless and provoking, I do.

                Now knowing the reference, I *do* see it as "needless and provoking". And if
                it was merely an attempt at humour (for it is exactly the style of humour
                that I I would indulge in myself) then it needed some words of explanation to
                make it more obviously a gentle poke in the ribs. There is too much bad
                blood here for subtlety to be effective.

                And yet, again, a small jab like that does not deserve the response it got.
                Best to let it pass uncommented.


                On Saturday 07 August 2004 04:10 am, calwen76 wrote:
                > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Eris <eris-elfscript@e...> wrote:
                > > On Friday 06 August 2004 05:47 am, calwen76 wrote:

                > If you'd be really interested, no such arguing would put you off it,
                > my opinion only. I went through such stages as well though I've been
                > into these groups for only a year and half, but the will to study
                > Tolkien's world has always been stronger. It's your fight, sorry,
                > you seem to blame us unrightfully.

                You misunderstood me. I have never stopped studying Tolkien's world, but have
                only sometimes stopped reading Elfscript and Elfling. Between the flame
                threads and the endless "translate my name" and "how do I write that" posts,
                there is often little material of value to be found on the lists. So when I
                get fed up with it, I usually just stop reading the email lists and spend
                more time reading Tolkien himself. I'm no linguist, so my own attempts at
                interpreting his languages fall far short of the excellent work of Misters
                Hostetter and Fauskanger, but sometimes the signal to noise ratio is far
                higher in my own meager analyses.


                > Maybe one day you will be provoked as well and will find out what is
                > this all about. Arguing is not a privilege of children.

                Ah. I make no claim of innocence. I've been on the Internet since 1989 and
                have been in my fair share of flame wars, on Usenet, web message boards, and
                email lists alike. In general I've grown quite weary of such arguments,
                because I've seen how much useful effect they have: none. I do, though,
                have a short temper, so as much as I regret it, I still find myself getting
                drawn into things sometimes. This thread is such an instance. I had gone
                for years without complaining about the CH-HF war (I think I did once give it
                a small mention in one of my rare Elfling posts about 2 years ago) but for
                some reason this latest flare up got me so irate that I posted.

                I do regret it now, because I know that it will do no good. Any rivalry that
                has gone on for so long will not be dinted by any words I can say.

                So that is what this is all about: a lurker who got irritated enough to say
                something for a change instead of silently ignoring the daily rantings of the
                Internet.

                I'm going to take my own advice now and be silent. If anyone has specific
                questions that I think might actually benefit the list, I'll answer on the
                list. Otherwise, I'll answer privately. I've said what I wanted to say, my
                anger has passed, and I think that if I speak further then I will simply be
                "fanning the flames" myself.

                Eris Caffee



                >
                > Good luck and nerv,
                > Lucy (or Lucka, Lucie, Luci, Lucinda, Lucias, Luca etc. - whatever
                > you want...)

                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Carl F.Hostetter
                ... Er, NO, he wasn t. And from his desperate attempt to redefine autumn for the rest of the world in order to _be_ right springs his assitude.
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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                  On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Eris wrote:

                  > You know what? He was right.

                  Er, NO, he wasn't. And from his desperate attempt to redefine "autumn"
                  for the rest of the world in order to _be_ "right" springs his
                  assitude.
                • Carl F.Hostetter
                  ... So you say. You seem to think that everyone in these forums has had exactly the same history and experiences as you and must accept the same received
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 7, 2004
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                    On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:19 PM, Eris wrote:

                    > Nonetheless, my assessment of the reactions to that provocation remain
                    > valid.

                    So you say. You seem to think that everyone in these forums has had
                    exactly the same history and experiences as you and must accept the
                    same received wisdom that you espouse. You seem unable to suppose that
                    your claimed "correct way" has been tried, and failed. I dare say I've
                    been in these forums considerably longer than most anyone else around,
                    and in fact, I was silent in the face of the endless taunts of Helge,
                    Salo, Star, et al. for a very long time, and you know what? It only
                    served to let them feel they could slander us with impunity, and their
                    lies became the received truth. Why? Because no one could be bothered
                    to question their assertions or to call an ass an ass. So your
                    assertedly superior way was long ago tried and proven to be a big fat
                    failure. Now I'm doing it _my_ way, and will continue to do so, so long
                    as Helge and his ilk keep up _their_ ways.

                    YOU could do some good by calling Helge an ass when he is being one,
                    instead of making excuses for him, which will IN FACT only encourage
                    him. So long as you and your kind continue to ameliorate the
                    environment for Helge's taunts and tactics, he will continue to avail
                    himself of it. If you and others would do as I do, or as Lucy has had
                    the discernment and sense to do, to see Helge for what he is and to
                    make the environment hostile to his provocations and rhetoric, then you
                    really might make a change for the better.


                    --
                    =============================================
                    Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                    ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                    Ars longa, vita brevis.
                    The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                    "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                    a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                  • ravenduongladash
                    Speaking of showing _ass_itude? [perhaps you meant _assuetude_, _assiduate_?] I was beginning to think the great Carl had reformed and had taken his vitriol
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 22, 2004
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                      Speaking of showing _ass_itude? [perhaps you meant _assuetude_,
                      _assiduate_?]
                      I was beginning to think the great Carl had reformed and had taken
                      his vitriol elsewhere.

                      caio
                      Graeme

                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F.Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Eris wrote:
                      >
                      > > You know what? He was right.
                      >
                      > Er, NO, he wasn't. And from his desperate attempt to
                      redefine "autumn"
                      > for the rest of the world in order to _be_ "right" springs his
                      > assitude.
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