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R: [elfscript] Re: The Later Convention??

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  • fradeve virgilio
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 7, 2004
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      <laurifindil wrote:
      Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

      These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
      by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
      clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
      stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
      thing. :) :) :)

      You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
      Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
      we know about tengwar.

      A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
      tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
      such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

      Cheers>

      So, tanks a lot for your suggests...
    • fradeve virgilio
      I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers… I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya. I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 9, 2004
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        I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers…

        I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

        I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a number in tengwar (also I
        don’t understand in

        which way this program can translate a number to tengwar,, with wich
        process… but this isn’t important).

        The main problem is: in which way can I write “july” with tengwar? (I’m
        Italian and in my lang July is “Luglio”)

        I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this reason I
        want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want to use a mode
        for Italian).

        But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

        A solution may be to indicate July with the name of Postlithe (the Calendar
        of the Shire), but the “8 july” not correspond to “8 Postlithe”,

        because in the Calendar of the Shire each month has a particular number of
        days (for example, February has 25 days… so, 8 july can’t correspond to 8
        Postlithe).

        Is there another Quenya name for this month, or another way to scribe it in
        Quenya, with tengwar?

        Regards,



        Leron delle Guglie



        _____

        Da: fradeve virgilio [mailto:fradeve11@...]
        Inviato: mercoledì 7 luglio 2004 15.27
        A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
        Oggetto: R: [elfscript] Re: The Later Convention??



        <laurifindil wrote:
        Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

        These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
        by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
        clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
        stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
        thing. :) :) :)

        You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
        Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
        we know about tengwar.

        A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
        tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
        such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

        Cheers>

        So, tanks a lot for your suggests...




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      • Harri Perälä
        ... I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don t see a problem with using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month names of our
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 11, 2004
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          fradeve virgilio wrote:
          > I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

          I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don't see a problem with
          using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month
          names of our calendar. The English names of months and days of the week
          that appear in The Lord of the Rings are supposed to be translations
          (without any date conversions) of original names used in the Red Book.
          This would be almost the same thing, but in the opposite direction. By
          the way, Postlithe appears to be an Italian translation; it's Afterlithe
          in the original.

          > I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this
          > reason I want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want
          > to use a mode for Italian).
          > But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

          If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
          sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
          written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
          was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
          reasonable to write it according to that mode.

          I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's Letters
          to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
          spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
          document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
          English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
          language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

          I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the way
          they are:
          - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
          so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
          - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as important in
          the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
          - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
          "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
          alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..."
          or "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")

          Am I on the right track here?

          Harri Perälä
        • machhezan
          ... Letters ... That s a very good example! I wasn t conscious but of the counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not classical Quenya mode) within the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 11, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...> wrote:
            > If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
            > sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
            > written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
            > was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
            > reasonable to write it according to that mode.


            > I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's
            Letters
            > to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
            > spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
            > document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
            > English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
            > language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

            That's a very good example! I wasn't conscious but of the
            counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not 'classical' Quenya
            mode) within the Anglo-Saxon mode of Lowdham's manuscript in DTS 50
            (neither is described on the net, I think).

            > I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the
            way
            > they are:
            > - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
            > so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
            > - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as
            important in
            > the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
            > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
            > "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing.

            Three very good reasons. We might even speculate that in Gondor,
            Quenya was normally spelt according to the general use, as seen in the
            Return of the King jacket (DTS 38) and in the example you've given
            which are the only examples that can be identified as Gondorian with a
            certain security. I don't think that there's any evidence in app. E
            that would prove this speculation to be wrong.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • fradeve virgilio
            I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message. So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months. Really I don t know that Postlithe is
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 12, 2004
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              I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message.
              So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months.

              Really I don't know that Postlithe is an Italian translation of Afterlithe
              (usually the latin radix "Post" is perfectly integrated with the English
              language, so I thought that this name of month was in the original lang...)

              In this way, if I use _cermie_ the _g_ of "Luglio" is not a problem.
              I can write perfectly _cermie_ with the classic tengwar mode for Quenya.

              I think also your thoughts are perfectly correct...
              But I'm too inexpert to give an absolutely correct opinion!

              Regards,

              Fradeve Virgilio
            • Helge K. Fauskanger
              ... postposited and preposited tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin alphabet equivalent might be Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino... or
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 12, 2004
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                Harri Perälä wrote (one of several explanations):

                > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
                alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..." or
                "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")
                >
                > Am I on the right track here?

                Yes, I tend to think this is the correct explanation.

                It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily use, though
                it served as a source for particularly noble names. Every literate person
                in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it is in no way certain that
                non-scholars would be familiar with the (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling
                mode. So Quenya names occurring in a Sindarin or Westron context would
                naturally be written in much the same mode as the rest of the text, making
                things much easier for both the writer and the reader. Possibly some
                "loremasters" wouldn't be quite happy about it, but a universally accepted
                standard orthography is not to be expected in a pseudo-medieval setting
                like Middle-earth.

                - HKF
              • machhezan
                ... DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a general use Quenya text that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate that the text could
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 13, 2004
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                  <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                  > It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily
                  > use, though it served as a source for particularly noble names.
                  > Every literate person in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it
                  > is in no way certain that non-scholars would be familiar with the
                  > (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling mode. So Quenya names occurring
                  > in a Sindarin or Westron context would naturally be written in much
                  > the same mode as the rest of the text, making things much easier
                  > for both the writer and the reader.

                  DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a 'general use' Quenya text
                  that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate
                  that the text could be supposed to be written by a very literate
                  Sindarin speaker. I think that this specimen suggest, as I've said,
                  that in Gondor, Quenya was normally spelt according to the general
                  use.

                  g_0ry@_^s:
                  j. 'mach' wust
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