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  • fradeve virgilio
    Hi! My nick is Leron delle Guglie, I m 17 yo and I m Italian. So, since about 1 year I m interesting of Tolkien languages 8speaking and writing), so to solve
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 4, 2004
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      Hi!

      My nick is Leron delle Guglie, I'm 17 yo and I'm Italian.

      So, since about 1 year I'm interesting of Tolkien languages 8speaking and
      writing), so to solve

      some problems that I have with my studies, I have decided to write on these
      mailing list.



      Regards



      Leron



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • fradeve virgilio
      I’m studying tengwar modes, in particolar the “full modes”. In these, there is the “Early Mode”… But I haven’t understood exactly what it is…
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4, 2004
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        I’m studying tengwar modes, in particolar the “full modes”. In these, there
        is the “Early Mode”… But I haven’t understood exactly what it is…

        And in the same paragraph: “vowel tengwar differs from those in the Later
        Convention (c = e etc.).”

        What’s the Later Convention??



        Namárië



        Leron delle Guglie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • laurifindil
        ... these, there ... Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :) These terms ( early mode or later convention ) have been made up by
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 5, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio"
          <fradeve11@v...> wrote:
          > I'm studying tengwar modes, in particolar the "full modes". In
          these, there
          > is the "Early Mode"… But I haven't understood exactly what it is…

          Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

          These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
          by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
          clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
          stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
          thing. :) :) :)

          You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
          Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
          we know about tengwar.

          A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
          tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
          such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

          cheers
        • Harri Perälä
          ... There was a very similar question here some time ago. You may want to see what was suggested then (search for thirteen in the archives). ... I m not sure
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 6, 2004
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            randa2586 wrote:
            > I want to get a tattoo of the word 'thirteen' written in elvish.

            There was a very similar question here some time ago. You may want to
            see what was suggested then (search for "thirteen" in the archives).

            > if there are any tutorials you could recommend, that would
            > be great.

            I'm not sure if there is tutorial-like material about transcribing
            English (if that is what you want to do; as has often been said here,
            "in Elvish" can mean many things). If you want a practical approach, you
            can always take a tengwar inscription by Tolkien and try to decipher it
            letter by letter. One collection of links to online material is
            http://sweb.cz/Calwen.Rudh/Fonts&guides.htm.

            Harri Perälä
          • Stephanie Slater
            hi you emailed me. i m also in the elvish group you re in. how much about the tengwar do you know? i would like to know more. my name is stephanie and i m 17
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 6, 2004
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              hi you emailed me. i'm also in the elvish group you're
              in. how much about the tengwar do you know? i would
              like to know more. my name is stephanie and i'm 17
              also.
              stephanie

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            • fradeve virgilio
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 7, 2004
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                <laurifindil wrote:
                Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

                These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
                by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
                clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
                stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
                thing. :) :) :)

                You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
                Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
                we know about tengwar.

                A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
                tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
                such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

                Cheers>

                So, tanks a lot for your suggests...
              • fradeve virgilio
                I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers… I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya. I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 9, 2004
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                  I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers…

                  I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

                  I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a number in tengwar (also I
                  don’t understand in

                  which way this program can translate a number to tengwar,, with wich
                  process… but this isn’t important).

                  The main problem is: in which way can I write “july” with tengwar? (I’m
                  Italian and in my lang July is “Luglio”)

                  I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this reason I
                  want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want to use a mode
                  for Italian).

                  But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

                  A solution may be to indicate July with the name of Postlithe (the Calendar
                  of the Shire), but the “8 july” not correspond to “8 Postlithe”,

                  because in the Calendar of the Shire each month has a particular number of
                  days (for example, February has 25 days… so, 8 july can’t correspond to 8
                  Postlithe).

                  Is there another Quenya name for this month, or another way to scribe it in
                  Quenya, with tengwar?

                  Regards,



                  Leron delle Guglie



                  _____

                  Da: fradeve virgilio [mailto:fradeve11@...]
                  Inviato: mercoledì 7 luglio 2004 15.27
                  A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                  Oggetto: R: [elfscript] Re: The Later Convention??



                  <laurifindil wrote:
                  Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

                  These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
                  by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
                  clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
                  stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
                  thing. :) :) :)

                  You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
                  Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
                  we know about tengwar.

                  A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
                  tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
                  such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

                  Cheers>

                  So, tanks a lot for your suggests...




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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Harri Perälä
                  ... I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don t see a problem with using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month names of our
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 11, 2004
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                    fradeve virgilio wrote:
                    > I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

                    I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don't see a problem with
                    using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month
                    names of our calendar. The English names of months and days of the week
                    that appear in The Lord of the Rings are supposed to be translations
                    (without any date conversions) of original names used in the Red Book.
                    This would be almost the same thing, but in the opposite direction. By
                    the way, Postlithe appears to be an Italian translation; it's Afterlithe
                    in the original.

                    > I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this
                    > reason I want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want
                    > to use a mode for Italian).
                    > But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

                    If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
                    sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
                    written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
                    was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
                    reasonable to write it according to that mode.

                    I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's Letters
                    to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
                    spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
                    document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
                    English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
                    language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

                    I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the way
                    they are:
                    - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
                    so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
                    - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as important in
                    the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
                    - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                    "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
                    alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..."
                    or "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")

                    Am I on the right track here?

                    Harri Perälä
                  • machhezan
                    ... Letters ... That s a very good example! I wasn t conscious but of the counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not classical Quenya mode) within the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 11, 2004
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...> wrote:
                      > If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
                      > sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
                      > written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
                      > was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
                      > reasonable to write it according to that mode.


                      > I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's
                      Letters
                      > to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
                      > spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
                      > document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
                      > English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
                      > language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

                      That's a very good example! I wasn't conscious but of the
                      counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not 'classical' Quenya
                      mode) within the Anglo-Saxon mode of Lowdham's manuscript in DTS 50
                      (neither is described on the net, I think).

                      > I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the
                      way
                      > they are:
                      > - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
                      > so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
                      > - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as
                      important in
                      > the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
                      > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                      > "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing.

                      Three very good reasons. We might even speculate that in Gondor,
                      Quenya was normally spelt according to the general use, as seen in the
                      Return of the King jacket (DTS 38) and in the example you've given
                      which are the only examples that can be identified as Gondorian with a
                      certain security. I don't think that there's any evidence in app. E
                      that would prove this speculation to be wrong.

                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
                    • fradeve virgilio
                      I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message. So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months. Really I don t know that Postlithe is
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 12, 2004
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                        I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message.
                        So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months.

                        Really I don't know that Postlithe is an Italian translation of Afterlithe
                        (usually the latin radix "Post" is perfectly integrated with the English
                        language, so I thought that this name of month was in the original lang...)

                        In this way, if I use _cermie_ the _g_ of "Luglio" is not a problem.
                        I can write perfectly _cermie_ with the classic tengwar mode for Quenya.

                        I think also your thoughts are perfectly correct...
                        But I'm too inexpert to give an absolutely correct opinion!

                        Regards,

                        Fradeve Virgilio
                      • Helge K. Fauskanger
                        ... postposited and preposited tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin alphabet equivalent might be Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino... or
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 12, 2004
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                          Harri Perälä wrote (one of several explanations):

                          > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                          "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
                          alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..." or
                          "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")
                          >
                          > Am I on the right track here?

                          Yes, I tend to think this is the correct explanation.

                          It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily use, though
                          it served as a source for particularly noble names. Every literate person
                          in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it is in no way certain that
                          non-scholars would be familiar with the (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling
                          mode. So Quenya names occurring in a Sindarin or Westron context would
                          naturally be written in much the same mode as the rest of the text, making
                          things much easier for both the writer and the reader. Possibly some
                          "loremasters" wouldn't be quite happy about it, but a universally accepted
                          standard orthography is not to be expected in a pseudo-medieval setting
                          like Middle-earth.

                          - HKF
                        • machhezan
                          ... DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a general use Quenya text that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate that the text could
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 13, 2004
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                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                            <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                            > It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily
                            > use, though it served as a source for particularly noble names.
                            > Every literate person in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it
                            > is in no way certain that non-scholars would be familiar with the
                            > (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling mode. So Quenya names occurring
                            > in a Sindarin or Westron context would naturally be written in much
                            > the same mode as the rest of the text, making things much easier
                            > for both the writer and the reader.

                            DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a 'general use' Quenya text
                            that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate
                            that the text could be supposed to be written by a very literate
                            Sindarin speaker. I think that this specimen suggest, as I've said,
                            that in Gondor, Quenya was normally spelt according to the general
                            use.

                            g_0ry@_^s:
                            j. 'mach' wust
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