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Re: [elfscript] Thirteen in Elvish?

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  • Ice Wolf
    http://www.ffn.ub.es/~felixcas/teng-que.pdf http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Elven+numerals&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab= randa2586
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 3 3:57 PM
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      http://www.ffn.ub.es/~felixcas/teng-que.pdf

      http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Elven+numerals&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=

      randa2586 <randa2586@...> wrote:
      I want to get a tattoo of the word 'thirteen' written in elvish. i
      have it written in tengwar, but i am so lost in learning the whole
      process. i don't learn very well reading, and since you can't just
      find people that know elvish, i'm at a disadvantage. the picture i
      have of the word i got from a generator, so it's probably wrong. i've
      read some stuff, but it really makes no sense to me. i was wondering
      if anyone could look at the picture and tell me if it's close, and
      how to make it actually Elvish script, not just some letters thrown
      together. if there are any tutorials you could recommend, that would
      be great. thanks so much.



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    • fradeve virgilio
      Hi! My nick is Leron delle Guglie, I m 17 yo and I m Italian. So, since about 1 year I m interesting of Tolkien languages 8speaking and writing), so to solve
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4 2:40 PM
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        Hi!

        My nick is Leron delle Guglie, I'm 17 yo and I'm Italian.

        So, since about 1 year I'm interesting of Tolkien languages 8speaking and
        writing), so to solve

        some problems that I have with my studies, I have decided to write on these
        mailing list.



        Regards



        Leron



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • fradeve virgilio
        I’m studying tengwar modes, in particolar the “full modes”. In these, there is the “Early Mode”… But I haven’t understood exactly what it is…
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4 2:40 PM
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          I’m studying tengwar modes, in particolar the “full modes”. In these, there
          is the “Early Mode”… But I haven’t understood exactly what it is…

          And in the same paragraph: “vowel tengwar differs from those in the Later
          Convention (c = e etc.).”

          What’s the Later Convention??



          Namárië



          Leron delle Guglie





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • laurifindil
          ... these, there ... Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :) These terms ( early mode or later convention ) have been made up by
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 5 3:51 AM
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "fradeve virgilio"
            <fradeve11@v...> wrote:
            > I'm studying tengwar modes, in particolar the "full modes". In
            these, there
            > is the "Early Mode"… But I haven't understood exactly what it is…

            Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

            These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
            by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
            clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
            stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
            thing. :) :) :)

            You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
            Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
            we know about tengwar.

            A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
            tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
            such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

            cheers
          • Harri Perälä
            ... There was a very similar question here some time ago. You may want to see what was suggested then (search for thirteen in the archives). ... I m not sure
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 6 10:49 AM
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              randa2586 wrote:
              > I want to get a tattoo of the word 'thirteen' written in elvish.

              There was a very similar question here some time ago. You may want to
              see what was suggested then (search for "thirteen" in the archives).

              > if there are any tutorials you could recommend, that would
              > be great.

              I'm not sure if there is tutorial-like material about transcribing
              English (if that is what you want to do; as has often been said here,
              "in Elvish" can mean many things). If you want a practical approach, you
              can always take a tengwar inscription by Tolkien and try to decipher it
              letter by letter. One collection of links to online material is
              http://sweb.cz/Calwen.Rudh/Fonts&guides.htm.

              Harri Perälä
            • Stephanie Slater
              hi you emailed me. i m also in the elvish group you re in. how much about the tengwar do you know? i would like to know more. my name is stephanie and i m 17
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 6 11:07 AM
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                hi you emailed me. i'm also in the elvish group you're
                in. how much about the tengwar do you know? i would
                like to know more. my name is stephanie and i'm 17
                also.
                stephanie

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              • fradeve virgilio
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 7 6:27 AM
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                  <laurifindil wrote:
                  Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

                  These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
                  by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
                  clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
                  stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
                  thing. :) :) :)

                  You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
                  Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
                  we know about tengwar.

                  A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
                  tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
                  such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

                  Cheers>

                  So, tanks a lot for your suggests...
                • fradeve virgilio
                  I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers… I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya. I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 9 1:49 PM
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                    I’ve a problem with the tengwar writing of Quenya numbers…

                    I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

                    I’ve downloaded a program that can transcribe a number in tengwar (also I
                    don’t understand in

                    which way this program can translate a number to tengwar,, with wich
                    process… but this isn’t important).

                    The main problem is: in which way can I write “july” with tengwar? (I’m
                    Italian and in my lang July is “Luglio”)

                    I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this reason I
                    want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want to use a mode
                    for Italian).

                    But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

                    A solution may be to indicate July with the name of Postlithe (the Calendar
                    of the Shire), but the “8 july” not correspond to “8 Postlithe”,

                    because in the Calendar of the Shire each month has a particular number of
                    days (for example, February has 25 days… so, 8 july can’t correspond to 8
                    Postlithe).

                    Is there another Quenya name for this month, or another way to scribe it in
                    Quenya, with tengwar?

                    Regards,



                    Leron delle Guglie



                    _____

                    Da: fradeve virgilio [mailto:fradeve11@...]
                    Inviato: mercoledì 7 luglio 2004 15.27
                    A: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                    Oggetto: R: [elfscript] Re: The Later Convention??



                    <laurifindil wrote:
                    Neither did I after more than 20 years into tengwar and Elvish. :)

                    These terms ("early mode" or "later convention") have been made up
                    by "fans" and not by Tolkien. Usually, "fans" tend to forget to
                    clearly state what is made up on their site and what is genuine
                    stuff... But then hey ! They would become "scholars"... Weird
                    thing. :) :) :)

                    You should be VERY cearfull with what you read about tengwar on
                    Internet. And better to use Appendix E of LOTR, it has 80% of what
                    we know about tengwar.

                    A "full mode" is a mode of writting in which vowels are written with
                    tengwar, not as diacritical signs under or over the tengwa. One of
                    such mode is "the Mode of Beleriand" as seen on the Doors of Moria.

                    Cheers>

                    So, tanks a lot for your suggests...




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                  • Harri Perälä
                    ... I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don t see a problem with using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month names of our
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 11 8:01 AM
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                      fradeve virgilio wrote:
                      > I want to write “8 July 2004” in Quenya.

                      I think you could use Cermie from Appendix D. I don't see a problem with
                      using the Quenya names from Middle-earth calendars to translate month
                      names of our calendar. The English names of months and days of the week
                      that appear in The Lord of the Rings are supposed to be translations
                      (without any date conversions) of original names used in the Red Book.
                      This would be almost the same thing, but in the opposite direction. By
                      the way, Postlithe appears to be an Italian translation; it's Afterlithe
                      in the original.

                      > I must insert this script in my book of Quenya Course, and for this
                      > reason I want to scribe it with the Classic Quenya Mode (I don’t want
                      > to use a mode for Italian).
                      > But in this mode I can’t transcribe the _g_ of _Luglio_.

                      If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
                      sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
                      written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
                      was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
                      reasonable to write it according to that mode.

                      I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's Letters
                      to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
                      spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
                      document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
                      English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
                      language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

                      I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the way
                      they are:
                      - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
                      so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
                      - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as important in
                      the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
                      - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                      "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
                      alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..."
                      or "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")

                      Am I on the right track here?

                      Harri Perälä
                    • machhezan
                      ... Letters ... That s a very good example! I wasn t conscious but of the counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not classical Quenya mode) within the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 11 9:43 AM
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                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...> wrote:
                        > If I'm not mistaken, there are no examples of how of such "foreign"
                        > sounds and combinations would be handled in the middle of a document
                        > written in the classical Quenya mode. If the problematic word or name
                        > was in a language that had a standard tengwar spelling, it would seem
                        > reasonable to write it according to that mode.


                        > I actually might have expected "Elessar Telcontar" in the King's
                        Letters
                        > to be written in the classical mode that App. E calls "the standard
                        > spelling of Quenya", but it's in the same mode as the rest of the
                        > document. From a modern perspective, this is maybe a bit odd: if the
                        > English name "Strider" is mentioned in a document written in any
                        > language that uses the Latin alphabet, it is still written "Strider".

                        That's a very good example! I wasn't conscious but of the
                        counterexample, the Quenya mode words (though not 'classical' Quenya
                        mode) within the Anglo-Saxon mode of Lowdham's manuscript in DTS 50
                        (neither is described on the net, I think).

                        > I can think of some possible reasons why the Letters are written the
                        way
                        > they are:
                        > - Quenya was written in other modes as well as the "standard spelling",
                        > so readers were used to seeing different spellings of Quenya words.
                        > - Having only one spelling for a name was not considered as
                        important in
                        > the Third/Fourth Age as it is today.
                        > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                        > "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing.

                        Three very good reasons. We might even speculate that in Gondor,
                        Quenya was normally spelt according to the general use, as seen in the
                        Return of the King jacket (DTS 38) and in the example you've given
                        which are the only examples that can be identified as Gondorian with a
                        certain security. I don't think that there's any evidence in app. E
                        that would prove this speculation to be wrong.

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
                      • fradeve virgilio
                        I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message. So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months. Really I don t know that Postlithe is
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 12 3:03 PM
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                          I saw the Appendix D only after posted my message.
                          So, _cermie_ is the perfect solution at all my problems with months.

                          Really I don't know that Postlithe is an Italian translation of Afterlithe
                          (usually the latin radix "Post" is perfectly integrated with the English
                          language, so I thought that this name of month was in the original lang...)

                          In this way, if I use _cermie_ the _g_ of "Luglio" is not a problem.
                          I can write perfectly _cermie_ with the classic tengwar mode for Quenya.

                          I think also your thoughts are perfectly correct...
                          But I'm too inexpert to give an absolutely correct opinion!

                          Regards,

                          Fradeve Virgilio
                        • Helge K. Fauskanger
                          ... postposited and preposited tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin alphabet equivalent might be Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino... or
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 12 3:22 PM
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                            Harri Perälä wrote (one of several explanations):

                            > - At least in version III, written in a tehta mode, switching between
                            "postposited" and "preposited" tehtar would be too confusing. (The Latin
                            alphabet equivalent might be "Elessar Telcontar, Ragaron Ratharonino..." or
                            "Eelassr Etlocantr, Aragorn Arathornion...")
                            >
                            > Am I on the right track here?

                            Yes, I tend to think this is the correct explanation.

                            It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily use, though
                            it served as a source for particularly noble names. Every literate person
                            in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it is in no way certain that
                            non-scholars would be familiar with the (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling
                            mode. So Quenya names occurring in a Sindarin or Westron context would
                            naturally be written in much the same mode as the rest of the text, making
                            things much easier for both the writer and the reader. Possibly some
                            "loremasters" wouldn't be quite happy about it, but a universally accepted
                            standard orthography is not to be expected in a pseudo-medieval setting
                            like Middle-earth.

                            - HKF
                          • machhezan
                            ... DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a general use Quenya text that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate that the text could
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 13 1:07 AM
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                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                              <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                              > It should be remembered that Quenya was not a language in daily
                              > use, though it served as a source for particularly noble names.
                              > Every literate person in Gondor must have known the Tengwar, but it
                              > is in no way certain that non-scholars would be familiar with the
                              > (rather peculiar) Quenya spelling mode. So Quenya names occurring
                              > in a Sindarin or Westron context would naturally be written in much
                              > the same mode as the rest of the text, making things much easier
                              > for both the writer and the reader.

                              DTS 38 provides us with an instance of a 'general use' Quenya text
                              that is not within a Sindarin or Westron context. We might speculate
                              that the text could be supposed to be written by a very literate
                              Sindarin speaker. I think that this specimen suggest, as I've said,
                              that in Gondor, Quenya was normally spelt according to the general
                              use.

                              g_0ry@_^s:
                              j. 'mach' wust
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