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Tengwar Translations/Transcriptions

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  • c_foro
    I have several questions about Tengwar translations and transcriptions 1. Which is the best translation for the phrase eternal life ? Quenya = oira koi or
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 29, 2004
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      I have several questions about Tengwar translations and transcriptions

      1. Which is the best translation for the phrase "eternal life"?
      Quenya = oira koi or oira koire or oira cuilë or oialë koi
      Sindarin = uireb kuil

      2. Is it more appropriate to us a "c" instead of a "k"?

      3. When transcribing Quenya and Sindarin into Tengwar, are the
      diaeresis and accents used for pronunciation only or are they
      essential for accurate transcription? The online transcriber I'm
      using does not recognize the double dots over the "e" in the
      word, "oialë" or the accent over the "i" in Ellerína. However, it
      does recognize diacritics for words such as resumé (accent over the
      final "e") so I'm assuming they are used for pronunciation only,
      rather than for accurate transcription, true?

      Gratefully,
      Christine
    • calwen76
      ... I can t say for the Q translation, but Sindarin could probably be *_cuil uireb_ (adjectives are placed after the noun, as in French), we are not sure. ...
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 1, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "c_foro" <c_foro@y...> wrote:
        > 1. Which is the best translation for the phrase "eternal life"?
        > Quenya = oira koi or oira koire or oira cuilë or oialë koi
        > Sindarin = uireb kuil

        I can't say for the Q translation, but Sindarin could probably be
        *_cuil uireb_ (adjectives are placed after the noun, as in French),
        we are not sure.

        > 2. Is it more appropriate to us a "c" instead of a "k"?

        Not _more appropriate_, it _is so_.

        > 3. When transcribing Quenya and Sindarin into Tengwar, are the
        > diaeresis and accents used for pronunciation only or are they
        > essential for accurate transcription? The online transcriber I'm
        > using does not recognize the double dots over the "e" in the
        > word, "oialë" or the accent over the "i" in Ellerína. However, it
        > does recognize diacritics for words such as resumé (accent over the
        > final "e") so I'm assuming they are used for pronunciation only,
        > rather than for accurate transcription, true?

        The diaresis used in Q is only a 'little crutch'. J.R.R.Tolkien
        wanted to emphasize that all vowels are pronounced matter no what,
        i.e. even at the end of the word, where it wouldn't be pronounced
        e.g. in English or French and other such languages. I, as a Slav,
        have no problem with pronouncing it even without the diaresis.
        So, the conclusion is: the diaresis only helps students to realize
        that the vowel is pronounced and reflects neither in the Tengwar nor
        in the Cirth.

        The accent in Q and S however is another case: it indicates that the
        vowel is LONG and so it displays in both transcription and
        pronounciation.
        E.g. the vowel _a_ (and it doesn't make any difference whether it's Q
        or S) has two (in Q) and three (in S) possible qualities: a short _a_
        (solely transcribed as three dots over a short carrier), a long _á_
        (solely transcribed as three dots over a long carrier) and
        a 'superlong' _â_ (seen in S only, though in the script it probably
        doesn't differ from the long one anyhow: it's transcribed as three
        dots over a long carrier as well, as far as I can tell) - but the
        circumphlexed vowels are seen mainly in monosyllabic words, I assume
        that their main function is to strengthen the word.
        So, the conclusion is: the transcription varies regarding the vowel
        length, which is - in latin - indicated by an accent.

        Hope I have cleared it up a bit. ;)

        Lucy
      • Harri Perälä
        ... That applies to Sindarin, but in Quenya, _k_ is common in writings both earlier and later than The Lord in the Rings, although LotR itself uses _c_. Quendi
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 1, 2004
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          calwen76 wrote:
          >>2. Is it more appropriate to us a "c" instead of a "k"?
          > Not _more appropriate_, it _is so_.

          That applies to Sindarin, but in Quenya, _k_ is common in writings both
          earlier and later than The Lord in the Rings, although LotR itself uses
          _c_. Quendi and Eldar, The Shibboleth of Feanor and the Etymologies all
          have _k_. The published Silmarillion is not entirely consistent
          internally, with its "Kementári" and "kelvar" among all the _c_-spellings.

          Harri Perälä
        • Melroch 'Aestan
          ... There is also _Kirith Ungol_ on CJRT s old map of Gondor! Actually Tolkien sr himself points out in English and Welsh that medieval Welsh used _k_. It
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 1, 2004
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            At 18:40 7/1/2004, Harri Perälä wrote:


            >That applies to Sindarin, but in Quenya, _k_ is common in writings both
            >earlier and later than The Lord in the Rings, although LotR itself uses
            >_c_. Quendi and Eldar, The Shibboleth of Feanor and the Etymologies all
            >have _k_. The published Silmarillion is not entirely consistent
            >internally, with its "Kementári" and "kelvar" among all the _c_-spellings.

            There is also _Kirith Ungol_ on CJRT's old map of Gondor!

            Actually Tolkien sr himself points out in "English and Welsh"
            that medieval Welsh used _k_. It was only when Salesbury (IIRC)
            should put Welsh into print that he replaced all _k_s by _c_s
            because the printer didn't have enough _k_s!

            So Sindarin would lose naught of its Welshiness if one used _k_.
            It already uses _w, u, y_ in a quite un-Welsh way, BTW.


            /BP 8^)
            --
            B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
            "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
          • Melroch 'Aestan
            ... Not to mention its non-use of _dd, ff, f_ *modo Cambrico*! Good thing, IMO. Imagine _Ffladrif_ and _Emun Mwyl_! (Tho I of course prefer _Fladriv_, which
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 1, 2004
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              At 22:30 7/1/2004, Melroch 'Aestan wrote:


              >So Sindarin would lose naught of its Welshiness if one used _k_.
              >It already uses _w, u, y_ in a quite un-Welsh way, BTW.

              Not to mention its non-use of _dd, ff, f_ *modo Cambrico*!

              Good thing, IMO. Imagine _Ffladrif_ and _Emun Mwyl_!

              (Tho I of course prefer _Fladriv_, which should shock noone,
              since JRRT says he choose the -f /v/ spelling because final
              -v is unknown in English spelling, as if the spelling of
              other languages actually need being dictated by such consideration.
              He considered not distinguishing _d_ and _dh_ /ð/ for the same
              reason, which he thankfully didn't do after all!


              /BP 8^)
              --
              B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
            • calwen76
              ... both ... uses ... all ... spellings. ... You re right, sure. My fault. Sorry. Lucy
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 1, 2004
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Harri Perälä <harri.perala@l...>
                wrote:
                > calwen76 wrote:
                > >>2. Is it more appropriate to us a "c" instead of a "k"?
                > > Not _more appropriate_, it _is so_.
                >
                > That applies to Sindarin, but in Quenya, _k_ is common in writings
                both
                > earlier and later than The Lord in the Rings, although LotR itself
                uses
                > _c_. Quendi and Eldar, The Shibboleth of Feanor and the Etymologies
                all
                > have _k_. The published Silmarillion is not entirely consistent
                > internally, with its "Kementári" and "kelvar" among all the _c_-
                spellings.
                >
                > Harri Perälä

                You're right, sure. My fault. Sorry. Lucy
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