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Re: sindarin classic

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  • elimloth
    ... one ... There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is that the
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 7, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "legolas_greenleaf303"
      <legolas_greenleaf303@y...> wrote:
      > well this site
      > http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the
      one
      > im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also
      > use this sometimes to im just wondering because it will sometimes
      > spit out yanta instead of the dots and for ing it will spit out
      > nwalme instead of noldo how many modes of sindarin are there and
      > which uses marks for vowels which is the best to learn out of all
      > modes

      There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too
      vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is
      that the Sindarin Classic mode is that as may have been written by
      scribes of Gondor. It is mannish.

      Would you give specific examples of input text you used that brought
      out the other problems you described. I would like to know which
      transcriber you used (OTT, TEngScribe, YaTT), and which mode, though
      I am guessing you were complaining about SindarinClassic.mod.

      I created that mode table based on Per Lindberg's essay found at:
      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/teng-sin.pdf
      (more information is at:
      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html)

      BTW, the transcribers have a downlevel mode file for Sindarin
      Classic that has a few transcription errors; you may find the latest
      version here:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/Sindarin%20Classic.mod

      Elimloth
    • Melroch 'Aestan
      ... Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that? /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@melroch.se (delete X)
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 7, 2004
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        At 21:15 7.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:

        > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
        >silme nuquerna,

        Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

        /BP 8^)
        --
        B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
        A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
        __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
        \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
        / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
        / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
        /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
        Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
        ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
        || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
        "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
      • legolas_greenleaf303
        im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im trying learn elvish i
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 7, 2004
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          im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would
          get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im
          trying learn elvish i know the vowels and what not i just dont get
          the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta and the vowel i also dont
          know the rules im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin
          mode of beleriand and quenya mixed
        • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
          ... The Lord of the Rings , Appendix E: The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of full writing with the vowels represented by separate letters. All
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 7, 2004
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            Teithant Melroch:
            >d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
            > > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
            > >silme nuquerna,
            >Really?  Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

            'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
            "The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
            vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
            Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
            noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
            word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
            appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
            represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
            me that this was the common practice.

            Cuio mae, Danny.
          • Melroch 'Aestan
            ... Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have extended this use by
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 8, 2004
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              At 08:31 8.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
              >Teithant Melroch:
              >>d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
              >> > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
              >> >silme nuquerna,
              >>Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?
              >
              >'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
              >"The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
              >vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
              >Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
              >noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
              >word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
              >appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
              >represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
              >me that this was the common practice.
              >
              >Cuio mae, Danny.

              Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript
              long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have
              extended this use by having esse nuquerna for _ö_.

              I misinterpreted you because I thought you were talking of
              **consonantal** _y_ [j] when writing English. Musta been tired!


              /BP 8^)
              --
              B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
            • machhezan
              ... There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng)
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 8, 2004
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                "legolas_greenleaf303" wrote:
                > im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin mode of
                > beleriand and quenya mixed

                There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ
                basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for
                k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng) and in the representation of the vowels. One
                of these modes is given a name by Tolkien himself, the "mode of
                Beleriand", which is the mode of the inscription of the west gate of
                Moria. It uses the third consonant series for the k-sounds and
                represents the vowels by full letters.

                The other two Sindarin modes aren't explicitly named by Tolkien
                himself. They're both attested in the three versions of the "King's
                Letter". They both use the fourth tengwar series for the k-sounds, but
                they differ in the representation of the vowels: The earlier versions
                of the "King's Letter" represent the vowels with full letters, while
                the final version represents them with tehtar.

                As you see, there's no Sindarin mode by Tolkien that uses the third
                consonant series for the k-sounds AND represents the vowels with
                tehtar, and neither is there a mode that were called "sindarin
                classic". So you're right that this mode is a (post-tolkienian)
                mixture of the mode of Beleriand and the classical mode of Quenya.

                > i just dont get the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta
                > and the vowel

                I think the files of Per Lindberg mentioned by Elimloth are the best
                ready-made online resource for the Sindarin modes and will answer most
                of your questions. Though they have a little gap concerning the "3
                ys": In his description of the Sindarin tehtar mode, Per covers them
                almost. The vowel _y_, the second part of diphthong _-i_, and the
                syllable-initial _i-_, but his description of the mode of Beleriand
                lacks the latter. It's the long carrier.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
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