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Re: sindarin classic

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  • legolas_greenleaf303
    well this site http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the one im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also use
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 7 9:07 PM
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      well this site
      http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the one
      im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also
      use this sometimes to im just wondering because it will sometimes
      spit out yanta instead of the dots and for ing it will spit out
      nwalme instead of noldo how many modes of sindarin are there and
      which uses marks for vowels which is the best to learn out of all
      modes
    • elimloth
      ... one ... There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is that the
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 7 10:14 PM
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "legolas_greenleaf303"
        <legolas_greenleaf303@y...> wrote:
        > well this site
        > http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the
        one
        > im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also
        > use this sometimes to im just wondering because it will sometimes
        > spit out yanta instead of the dots and for ing it will spit out
        > nwalme instead of noldo how many modes of sindarin are there and
        > which uses marks for vowels which is the best to learn out of all
        > modes

        There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too
        vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is
        that the Sindarin Classic mode is that as may have been written by
        scribes of Gondor. It is mannish.

        Would you give specific examples of input text you used that brought
        out the other problems you described. I would like to know which
        transcriber you used (OTT, TEngScribe, YaTT), and which mode, though
        I am guessing you were complaining about SindarinClassic.mod.

        I created that mode table based on Per Lindberg's essay found at:
        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/teng-sin.pdf
        (more information is at:
        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html)

        BTW, the transcribers have a downlevel mode file for Sindarin
        Classic that has a few transcription errors; you may find the latest
        version here:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/Sindarin%20Classic.mod

        Elimloth
      • Melroch 'Aestan
        ... Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that? /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@melroch.se (delete X)
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 7 10:38 PM
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          At 21:15 7.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:

          > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
          >silme nuquerna,

          Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

          /BP 8^)
          --
          B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
          A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
          __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
          \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
          / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
          / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
          /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
          Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
          ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
          || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
          "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
        • legolas_greenleaf303
          im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im trying learn elvish i
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 7 10:40 PM
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            im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would
            get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im
            trying learn elvish i know the vowels and what not i just dont get
            the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta and the vowel i also dont
            know the rules im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin
            mode of beleriand and quenya mixed
          • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
            ... The Lord of the Rings , Appendix E: The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of full writing with the vowels represented by separate letters. All
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 7 11:31 PM
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              Teithant Melroch:
              >d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
              > > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
              > >silme nuquerna,
              >Really?  Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

              'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
              "The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
              vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
              Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
              noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
              word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
              appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
              represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
              me that this was the common practice.

              Cuio mae, Danny.
            • Melroch 'Aestan
              ... Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have extended this use by
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 8 11:34 AM
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                At 08:31 8.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
                >Teithant Melroch:
                >>d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
                >> > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
                >> >silme nuquerna,
                >>Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?
                >
                >'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
                >"The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
                >vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
                >Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
                >noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
                >word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
                >appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
                >represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
                >me that this was the common practice.
                >
                >Cuio mae, Danny.

                Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript
                long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have
                extended this use by having esse nuquerna for _ö_.

                I misinterpreted you because I thought you were talking of
                **consonantal** _y_ [j] when writing English. Musta been tired!


                /BP 8^)
                --
                B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
              • machhezan
                ... There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng)
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 8 11:46 AM
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                  "legolas_greenleaf303" wrote:
                  > im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin mode of
                  > beleriand and quenya mixed

                  There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ
                  basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for
                  k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng) and in the representation of the vowels. One
                  of these modes is given a name by Tolkien himself, the "mode of
                  Beleriand", which is the mode of the inscription of the west gate of
                  Moria. It uses the third consonant series for the k-sounds and
                  represents the vowels by full letters.

                  The other two Sindarin modes aren't explicitly named by Tolkien
                  himself. They're both attested in the three versions of the "King's
                  Letter". They both use the fourth tengwar series for the k-sounds, but
                  they differ in the representation of the vowels: The earlier versions
                  of the "King's Letter" represent the vowels with full letters, while
                  the final version represents them with tehtar.

                  As you see, there's no Sindarin mode by Tolkien that uses the third
                  consonant series for the k-sounds AND represents the vowels with
                  tehtar, and neither is there a mode that were called "sindarin
                  classic". So you're right that this mode is a (post-tolkienian)
                  mixture of the mode of Beleriand and the classical mode of Quenya.

                  > i just dont get the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta
                  > and the vowel

                  I think the files of Per Lindberg mentioned by Elimloth are the best
                  ready-made online resource for the Sindarin modes and will answer most
                  of your questions. Though they have a little gap concerning the "3
                  ys": In his description of the Sindarin tehtar mode, Per covers them
                  almost. The vowel _y_, the second part of diphthong _-i_, and the
                  syllable-initial _i-_, but his description of the mode of Beleriand
                  lacks the latter. It's the long carrier.

                  ---------------------------
                  j. 'mach' wust
                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  ---------------------------
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