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sindarin classic

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  • legolas_greenleaf303
    why is kw used instead of k same with nw and gw also why is y sometimes used for e why is there 2 ys in sindarin classic
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 7 10:57 AM
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      why is kw used instead of k same with nw and gw also why is y
      sometimes used for e why is there 2 ys in sindarin classic
    • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
      ... I will try to give some answers according to what I think you re asking. (Note: Using a little punctuation can go a long way in making things clearer!) The
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 7 12:15 PM
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        Teithant legolas_greenleaf303:
        >why is kw used instead of k same with nw and gw also
        >why is y sometimes used for e why is there 2 ys in
        >sindarin classic

        I will try to give some answers according to what I think you're asking.
        (Note: Using a little punctuation can go a long way in making things
        clearer!) The term 'Sindarin Classic' used by some websites is not
        'classical' at all, but is a mannish mode used by the Dúnedain. They
        used series IV for 'k', 'g', etc. Sindarin modes had no use for the
        combination 'kw' since it doesn't exist in Sindarin. Remember, Quenya
        and Sindarin are different languages; their use of tengwar cannot be
        expected to be identical. Look at our alphabet: take the letter 'h'. Now
        let's take three languages that use the Roman alphabet: English, French,
        and Croatian. English and Croatian pronounce 'h' differently, whereas
        French doesn't pronounce it at all. Same with the Eldrin language. The
        letters are pronounced according to their needs.
        Now as to why 'y' is sometimes used for 'e', it's not. In tehta modes
        (like 'Classic'), 'y' is written as two dots (¨) and 'e' is written as
        the acute accent ( ´ ). In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
        silme nuquerna, and 'e' is written with yanta. 'Y' and 'e' are two
        different vowels, and each has its own written form according to the
        mode being used.
        About the 2 'y's in 'Sindarin Classic', what two 'y's? There's only
        one, and it's written with the two dots as I wrote above.

        Cuio mae, Danny.
      • legolas_greenleaf303
        well this site http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the one im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also use
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 7 9:07 PM
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          well this site
          http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the one
          im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also
          use this sometimes to im just wondering because it will sometimes
          spit out yanta instead of the dots and for ing it will spit out
          nwalme instead of noldo how many modes of sindarin are there and
          which uses marks for vowels which is the best to learn out of all
          modes
        • elimloth
          ... one ... There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is that the
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 7 10:14 PM
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "legolas_greenleaf303"
            <legolas_greenleaf303@y...> wrote:
            > well this site
            > http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/tengwar/sindar.htm is the
            one
            > im useing http://www.mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php im also
            > use this sometimes to im just wondering because it will sometimes
            > spit out yanta instead of the dots and for ing it will spit out
            > nwalme instead of noldo how many modes of sindarin are there and
            > which uses marks for vowels which is the best to learn out of all
            > modes

            There is no best, but only different modes. Your examples are too
            vague, though I can explain the reason -ng is output as nwalme is
            that the Sindarin Classic mode is that as may have been written by
            scribes of Gondor. It is mannish.

            Would you give specific examples of input text you used that brought
            out the other problems you described. I would like to know which
            transcriber you used (OTT, TEngScribe, YaTT), and which mode, though
            I am guessing you were complaining about SindarinClassic.mod.

            I created that mode table based on Per Lindberg's essay found at:
            http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/teng-sin.pdf
            (more information is at:
            http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html)

            BTW, the transcribers have a downlevel mode file for Sindarin
            Classic that has a few transcription errors; you may find the latest
            version here:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/Sindarin%20Classic.mod

            Elimloth
          • Melroch 'Aestan
            ... Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that? /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@melroch.se (delete X)
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 7 10:38 PM
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              At 21:15 7.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:

              > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
              >silme nuquerna,

              Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

              /BP 8^)
              --
              B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
            • legolas_greenleaf303
              im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im trying learn elvish i
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 7 10:40 PM
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                im useing ott i did celebdring in sindarin classic i thought i would
                get noldo which is ing instead i get nwalme which ingw basically im
                trying learn elvish i know the vowels and what not i just dont get
                the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta and the vowel i also dont
                know the rules im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin
                mode of beleriand and quenya mixed
              • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
                ... The Lord of the Rings , Appendix E: The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of full writing with the vowels represented by separate letters. All
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 7 11:31 PM
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                  Teithant Melroch:
                  >d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
                  > > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
                  > >silme nuquerna,
                  >Really?  Where in Tolkien have you seen that?

                  'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
                  "The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
                  vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
                  Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
                  noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
                  word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
                  appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
                  represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
                  me that this was the common practice.

                  Cuio mae, Danny.
                • Melroch 'Aestan
                  ... Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have extended this use by
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 8 11:34 AM
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                    At 08:31 8.3.2004, d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
                    >Teithant Melroch:
                    >>d_daniel_andries@... wrote:
                    >> > In full writing modes, 'y' is written with
                    >> >silme nuquerna,
                    >>Really? Where in Tolkien have you seen that?
                    >
                    >'The Lord of the Rings', Appendix E:
                    >"The West-gate inscription illustrates a mode of 'full writing' with the
                    >vowels represented by separate letters. All the vocalic letters used in
                    >Sindarin are shown. The use of No. 30 as a sign for vocalic y may be
                    >noted..." Tengwa No. 30 is, of course, silme nuquerna. Furthermore, the
                    >word 'mhellyn' in the King's Letter, version I ("Sauron Defeated"),
                    >appears to be spelt with silme nuquerna. Silme nuquerna used to
                    >represent 'y' in two different Sindarin full writing modes suggests to
                    >me that this was the common practice.
                    >
                    >Cuio mae, Danny.

                    Of course, though I think it was originally an Uure with subscript
                    long carrier -- to indicate i-umlaut. When writing Swedish I have
                    extended this use by having esse nuquerna for _ö_.

                    I misinterpreted you because I thought you were talking of
                    **consonantal** _y_ [j] when writing English. Musta been tired!


                    /BP 8^)
                    --
                    B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                    A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                    __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                    \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                    / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                    / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                    /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                    Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                    ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                    || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                    "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
                  • machhezan
                    ... There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng)
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 8 11:46 AM
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                      "legolas_greenleaf303" wrote:
                      > im geussing sindarin classic is basically sindarin mode of
                      > beleriand and quenya mixed

                      There are three Sindarin modes attested by Tolkien. They differ
                      basicly in the use of the third or the fourth tengwar series for
                      k-sounds (k, g, ch, ng) and in the representation of the vowels. One
                      of these modes is given a name by Tolkien himself, the "mode of
                      Beleriand", which is the mode of the inscription of the west gate of
                      Moria. It uses the third consonant series for the k-sounds and
                      represents the vowels by full letters.

                      The other two Sindarin modes aren't explicitly named by Tolkien
                      himself. They're both attested in the three versions of the "King's
                      Letter". They both use the fourth tengwar series for the k-sounds, but
                      they differ in the representation of the vowels: The earlier versions
                      of the "King's Letter" represent the vowels with full letters, while
                      the final version represents them with tehtar.

                      As you see, there's no Sindarin mode by Tolkien that uses the third
                      consonant series for the k-sounds AND represents the vowels with
                      tehtar, and neither is there a mode that were called "sindarin
                      classic". So you're right that this mode is a (post-tolkienian)
                      mixture of the mode of Beleriand and the classical mode of Quenya.

                      > i just dont get the double letters and the 3 ys anna yanta
                      > and the vowel

                      I think the files of Per Lindberg mentioned by Elimloth are the best
                      ready-made online resource for the Sindarin modes and will answer most
                      of your questions. Though they have a little gap concerning the "3
                      ys": In his description of the Sindarin tehtar mode, Per covers them
                      almost. The vowel _y_, the second part of diphthong _-i_, and the
                      syllable-initial _i-_, but his description of the mode of Beleriand
                      lacks the latter. It's the long carrier.

                      ---------------------------
                      j. 'mach' wust
                      http://machhezan.tripod.com
                      ---------------------------
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