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Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring

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  • machhezan
    ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
      Lucy wrote:
      > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

      Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
      Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

      You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
      might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
      he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
      high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
      language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
      see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
      therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

      The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
        "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
        unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
        ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
        new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
        Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
        first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
        at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
        .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
        who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
        skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
        fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
        beware!'
        "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
        such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
        bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

        J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
      • calwen76
        ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
          wrote:
          > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

          Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
          Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

          Lucy
        • machhezan
          Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
            Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
            unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
            language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
            it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
            minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
            fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
            inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
            (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
            that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
            enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

            So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
            dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

            The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
            language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
            from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
            wholly different they must be distinguished."

            I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
            generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
            tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
            he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
            Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

            OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
            the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
              On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

              > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
              > control of their minds,

              Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
              assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
              language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
              mind to surrender its will to him.

              > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
              > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

              If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
              speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
              as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
              to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
              his service -- and mastery.

              And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
              useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

              > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
              > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

              So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
            • machhezan
              ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
                Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                > language as a tool.

                Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                perfectly agree with Carl:

                > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                and I think he'd manage without writing.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
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