Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
> Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid inI know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.
> What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?You actually answered yourself:
> We only know that they were used for matters of lore and formatters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
able to rule them.
> The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originallyYAE
> independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
> developped the One Ring orthography by himself.
> Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauronpossibly :))
> could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.
- Lucy wrote:
> he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...
You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.
The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.
j. 'mach' wust
- "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
.... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
"'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."
J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
- --- In email@example.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
> J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.
- Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
(as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."
So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.
The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
wholly different they must be distinguished."
I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?
OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
the only mention of a language of Morgoth?
j. 'mach' wust
- On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:
> However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow theExactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
> control of their minds,
assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
mind to surrender its will to him.
> So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd stillIf I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
> dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.
speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
his service -- and mastery.
And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
useful for its own purposes, at any given time.
> OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta isSo far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
> the only mention of a language of Morgoth?
- Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
> If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity ofThrough language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
> speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
> language as a tool.
thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.
The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
perfectly agree with Carl:
> And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which itSo if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
> find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.
we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
and I think he'd manage without writing.
j. 'mach' wust