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Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring

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  • calwen76
    ... I know he wasn t. But I think it was his nature to learn such things, he was originally one of the Aule s Maiar. ... matters of magic , I mean, for short
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
      > Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
      > Middle-Earth.

      I know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
      he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.

      > What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?

      You actually answered yourself:

      > We only know that they were used for matters of lore and for
      matters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
      tombs.

      Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
      the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
      able to rule them.

      > The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
      > independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
      > developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

      YAE

      > Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
      > could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

      possibly :))

      Lucy
    • machhezan
      ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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        Lucy wrote:
        > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

        Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
        Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

        You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
        might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
        he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
        high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
        language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
        see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
        therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

        The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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          "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
          unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
          ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
          new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
          Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
          first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
          at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
          .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
          who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
          skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
          fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
          beware!'
          "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
          such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
          bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

          J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
        • calwen76
          ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
            wrote:
            > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

            Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
            Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

            Lucy
          • machhezan
            Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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              Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
              unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
              language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
              it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
              minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
              fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
              inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
              (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
              that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
              enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

              So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
              dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

              The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
              language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
              from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
              wholly different they must be distinguished."

              I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
              generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
              tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
              he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
              Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

              OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
              the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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                On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

                > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
                > control of their minds,

                Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
                assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
                language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
                mind to surrender its will to him.

                > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
                as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
                to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
                his service -- and mastery.

                And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
                useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
              • machhezan
                ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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                  Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                  > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                  > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                  > language as a tool.

                  Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                  thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                  people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                  the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                  total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                  allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                  The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                  believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                  linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                  requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                  appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                  interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                  would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                  perfectly agree with Carl:

                  > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                  > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                  So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                  we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                  used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                  the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                  Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                  tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                  Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                  confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                  slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                  and I think he'd manage without writing.

                  ---------------------------
                  j. 'mach' wust
                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                  ---------------------------
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