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Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring

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  • machhezan
    ... We don t know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode known as mode of
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4 8:23 AM
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      aphadiol wrote:
      > It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand
      > was used (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use
      > tehtar at all...
      >
      > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

      We don't know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to
      assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode
      known as "mode of Beleriand", like on the Door of Moria. Of course,
      this name suggests that the same orthography was already used in
      Beleriand, that is, in the First Age.

      Lucy wrote:
      > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode
      > on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode
      > already in the First Age:

      I don't deny these two possibilities, I'd just like to add the third
      one that he could have acquired the mode from early corrupted
      Númenroean mariners, as I've pointed out in message #3529.

      > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron
      > invented it by himself HOW: he had to know Tengwar in
      > general from Valinor already

      Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
      Middle-Earth.

      I can't imagine that Morgoth would have teached Sauron how to use the
      tengwar he could have learned in Valinor, since I believe it's very
      unlikely that Morgoth would have any interest in matters of writing,
      after all in a writing system invented by Feanor. Though we can't
      exclude the possibility, however unlikely it is.

      > + the Black Speech has the
      > same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals + Sauron
      > was very skillful

      I agree with these reasons. They imply that Sauron knew other tengwar
      orthographies during the wars of the Silmarilli, like in the second
      possibility you admit, only that in that second possibility Sauron
      would know the 'general use' itself.

      What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies? I
      think he would only have an interest for them if his enemies used the
      script for the war, e.g., for secret messages. However, we don't know
      if the tengwar were ever used for such purposes in the First Age. We
      only know that they were used for matters of lore and for matters of
      'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or tombs. So I
      believe it's possible that despite much torturing of elves and men,
      Sauron wouldn't have learned the tengwar in the First Age because he
      could think that they weren't of any importance.

      His interest for the tengwar might have arisen only when he wanted to
      forge the One Ring, that is, when he needed the tengwar for magics. I
      doubt that this intention would come up before he had contact with the
      elven smiths of Eregion, because according to how I understand it, the
      rings of power were a fruit of the cooperation of Sauron and the elven
      smiths, that is, none of them had conceived them before.

      I don't want to say that this is how it was, it's just another
      possibility:

      The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
      independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
      developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

      Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
      could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • calwen76
      ... I know he wasn t. But I think it was his nature to learn such things, he was originally one of the Aule s Maiar. ... matters of magic , I mean, for short
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 5 3:00 AM
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
        > Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
        > Middle-Earth.

        I know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
        he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.

        > What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?

        You actually answered yourself:

        > We only know that they were used for matters of lore and for
        matters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
        tombs.

        Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
        the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
        able to rule them.

        > The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
        > independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
        > developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

        YAE

        > Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
        > could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

        possibly :))

        Lucy
      • machhezan
        ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 5 6:39 AM
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          Lucy wrote:
          > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

          Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
          Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

          You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
          might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
          he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
          high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
          language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
          see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
          therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

          The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 5 7:37 AM
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            "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
            unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
            ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
            new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
            Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
            first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
            at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
            .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
            who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
            skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
            fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
            beware!'
            "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
            such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
            bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

            J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
          • calwen76
            ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 5 10:46 AM
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
              wrote:
              > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

              Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
              Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

              Lucy
            • machhezan
              Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7 4:13 AM
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                Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
                unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
                language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
                it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
                minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
                fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
                inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
                (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
                that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
                enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

                So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
                language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
                from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
                wholly different they must be distinguished."

                I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
                generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
                tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
                he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
                Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

                OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • Carl F. Hostetter
                ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7 6:26 AM
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                  On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

                  > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
                  > control of their minds,

                  Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
                  assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
                  language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
                  mind to surrender its will to him.

                  > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                  > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                  If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                  speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
                  as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
                  to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
                  his service -- and mastery.

                  And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
                  useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                  > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                  > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                  So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
                • machhezan
                  ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7 1:09 PM
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                    Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                    > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                    > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                    > language as a tool.

                    Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                    thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                    people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                    the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                    total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                    allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                    The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                    believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                    linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                    requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                    appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                    interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                    would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                    perfectly agree with Carl:

                    > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                    > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                    So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                    we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                    used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                    the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                    Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                    tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                    Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                    confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                    slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                    and I think he'd manage without writing.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
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