Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring
- --- In email@example.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...>
> BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on theOne
> Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:by
> 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it
> himselfpalatals +
> HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
> Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the
> Sauron was very skillfulTirith -
> 2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
> torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas
> here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about suchfor
> mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma
> palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whetherof
> Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
> together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question
> The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt
> from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being amongwant
> both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
> known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just
> to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he madehis
> servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in thatcounted
> text that is actually not there :)
> Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
> Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
> about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he
> with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writingIt's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
> system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
(like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...
I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...
- Aphadiol teithant:
>It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was usedWhy was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn't -
>(like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...
by the lordmarsters' opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is
nowhere said that it was inappropriate for Westron neither. I prefer
the THEORY number 1 I wrote before. Since we don't have any Tengwar
text of Westron from either the First or the Second Age we can't say
what mode was used in that time for Westron. Look at the Ring
Inscription: the word _durbatuluuk_ (the last 'u' with a circumflex) -
is the double tehta (for long vowel) above the tengwa used in Gondor
mode of the Third Age??? The answer is: by our present knowledge -
NO. But such style is seen in Eorclanastas Namárie Inscription (i.e.
Third Age)- for Quenya. This BMO support my THEORY number 1. Of
course, the THEORY number 2 influes number 1 - Sauron had
become 'wiser' while capturing and torturing the peoples of ME.
BTW the inscription on the Moria Gate does show tehtar.
> I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...He wouldn't have much time for it BMO. Eregion is Second Age, his
lord was beaten hollow at the end of the First Age and he escaped to
Mordor, hiding himself for some time, thinking of how to come back
and finally get 'those bloody Elves' under his rule. So, at the very
most he could learn it from Eregion Elves (not Men=Númenoreans) in
the beginning of the Second Age when having given advices to Elven
smiths. But then the double tehta for long vowels had to be used
already. For what language? It is true that in that time, the Elves
were 'immingled' either among themselfes or with Men. So the
knowledge or awareness of various modes for various languages is
logical. But still, it's all assumption.
- aphadiol wrote:
> It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of BeleriandWe don't know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to
> was used (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use
> tehtar at all...
> I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...
assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode
known as "mode of Beleriand", like on the Door of Moria. Of course,
this name suggests that the same orthography was already used in
Beleriand, that is, in the First Age.
> BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the modeI don't deny these two possibilities, I'd just like to add the third
> on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode
> already in the First Age:
one that he could have acquired the mode from early corrupted
Númenroean mariners, as I've pointed out in message #3529.
> 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, SauronSauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
> invented it by himself HOW: he had to know Tengwar in
> general from Valinor already
I can't imagine that Morgoth would have teached Sauron how to use the
tengwar he could have learned in Valinor, since I believe it's very
unlikely that Morgoth would have any interest in matters of writing,
after all in a writing system invented by Feanor. Though we can't
exclude the possibility, however unlikely it is.
> + the Black Speech has theI agree with these reasons. They imply that Sauron knew other tengwar
> same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals + Sauron
> was very skillful
orthographies during the wars of the Silmarilli, like in the second
possibility you admit, only that in that second possibility Sauron
would know the 'general use' itself.
What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies? I
think he would only have an interest for them if his enemies used the
script for the war, e.g., for secret messages. However, we don't know
if the tengwar were ever used for such purposes in the First Age. We
only know that they were used for matters of lore and for matters of
'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or tombs. So I
believe it's possible that despite much torturing of elves and men,
Sauron wouldn't have learned the tengwar in the First Age because he
could think that they weren't of any importance.
His interest for the tengwar might have arisen only when he wanted to
forge the One Ring, that is, when he needed the tengwar for magics. I
doubt that this intention would come up before he had contact with the
elven smiths of Eregion, because according to how I understand it, the
rings of power were a fruit of the cooperation of Sauron and the elven
smiths, that is, none of them had conceived them before.
I don't want to say that this is how it was, it's just another
The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
developped the One Ring orthography by himself.
Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.
j. 'mach' wust
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
> Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid inI know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.
> What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?You actually answered yourself:
> We only know that they were used for matters of lore and formatters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
able to rule them.
> The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originallyYAE
> independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
> developped the One Ring orthography by himself.
> Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauronpossibly :))
> could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.
- Lucy wrote:
> he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...
You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.
The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.
j. 'mach' wust
- "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
.... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
"'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."
J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
- --- In email@example.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
> J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.
- Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
(as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."
So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.
The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
wholly different they must be distinguished."
I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?
OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
the only mention of a language of Morgoth?
j. 'mach' wust
- On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:
> However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow theExactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
> control of their minds,
assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
mind to surrender its will to him.
> So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd stillIf I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
> dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.
speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
his service -- and mastery.
And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
useful for its own purposes, at any given time.
> OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta isSo far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
> the only mention of a language of Morgoth?
- Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
> If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity ofThrough language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
> speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
> language as a tool.
thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.
The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
perfectly agree with Carl:
> And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which itSo if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
> find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.
we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
and I think he'd manage without writing.
j. 'mach' wust