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Re: Sauron and the mode on the One Ring

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  • aphadiol
    ... One ... by ... palatals + ... Tirith - ... for ... of ... _Tengwar_ ... want ... his ... counted ... It s quite nice but in the First Age the mode of
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
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      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...>
      wrote:
      > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the
      One
      > Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:
      > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it
      by
      > himself
      > HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
      > Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the
      palatals +
      > Sauron was very skillful
      > 2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
      > torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas
      Tirith -
      > here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about such
      > mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma
      for
      > palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whether
      > Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
      > together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question
      of
      > direction)
      >
      > The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt
      _Tengwar_
      > from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being among
      > both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
      > known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just
      want
      > to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he made
      his
      > servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in that
      > text that is actually not there :)
      >
      > Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
      > Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
      > about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he
      counted
      > with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writing
      > system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
      > obviously.
      >
      > Lucy

      It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
      (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

      I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...
    • calwen76
      ... Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn t - by the lordmarsters opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is nowhere said that it
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
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        Aphadiol teithant:
        >It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
        >(like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

        Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn't -
        by the lordmarsters' opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is
        nowhere said that it was inappropriate for Westron neither. I prefer
        the THEORY number 1 I wrote before. Since we don't have any Tengwar
        text of Westron from either the First or the Second Age we can't say
        what mode was used in that time for Westron. Look at the Ring
        Inscription: the word _durbatuluuk_ (the last 'u' with a circumflex) -
        is the double tehta (for long vowel) above the tengwa used in Gondor
        mode of the Third Age??? The answer is: by our present knowledge -
        NO. But such style is seen in Eorclanastas Namárie Inscription (i.e.
        Third Age)- for Quenya. This BMO support my THEORY number 1. Of
        course, the THEORY number 2 influes number 1 - Sauron had
        become 'wiser' while capturing and torturing the peoples of ME.

        BTW the inscription on the Moria Gate does show tehtar.

        > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

        He wouldn't have much time for it BMO. Eregion is Second Age, his
        lord was beaten hollow at the end of the First Age and he escaped to
        Mordor, hiding himself for some time, thinking of how to come back
        and finally get 'those bloody Elves' under his rule. So, at the very
        most he could learn it from Eregion Elves (not Men=Númenoreans) in
        the beginning of the Second Age when having given advices to Elven
        smiths. But then the double tehta for long vowels had to be used
        already. For what language? It is true that in that time, the Elves
        were 'immingled' either among themselfes or with Men. So the
        knowledge or awareness of various modes for various languages is
        logical. But still, it's all assumption.

        Lucy
      • machhezan
        ... We don t know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode known as mode of
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
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          aphadiol wrote:
          > It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand
          > was used (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use
          > tehtar at all...
          >
          > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

          We don't know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to
          assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode
          known as "mode of Beleriand", like on the Door of Moria. Of course,
          this name suggests that the same orthography was already used in
          Beleriand, that is, in the First Age.

          Lucy wrote:
          > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode
          > on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode
          > already in the First Age:

          I don't deny these two possibilities, I'd just like to add the third
          one that he could have acquired the mode from early corrupted
          Númenroean mariners, as I've pointed out in message #3529.

          > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron
          > invented it by himself HOW: he had to know Tengwar in
          > general from Valinor already

          Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
          Middle-Earth.

          I can't imagine that Morgoth would have teached Sauron how to use the
          tengwar he could have learned in Valinor, since I believe it's very
          unlikely that Morgoth would have any interest in matters of writing,
          after all in a writing system invented by Feanor. Though we can't
          exclude the possibility, however unlikely it is.

          > + the Black Speech has the
          > same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals + Sauron
          > was very skillful

          I agree with these reasons. They imply that Sauron knew other tengwar
          orthographies during the wars of the Silmarilli, like in the second
          possibility you admit, only that in that second possibility Sauron
          would know the 'general use' itself.

          What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies? I
          think he would only have an interest for them if his enemies used the
          script for the war, e.g., for secret messages. However, we don't know
          if the tengwar were ever used for such purposes in the First Age. We
          only know that they were used for matters of lore and for matters of
          'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or tombs. So I
          believe it's possible that despite much torturing of elves and men,
          Sauron wouldn't have learned the tengwar in the First Age because he
          could think that they weren't of any importance.

          His interest for the tengwar might have arisen only when he wanted to
          forge the One Ring, that is, when he needed the tengwar for magics. I
          doubt that this intention would come up before he had contact with the
          elven smiths of Eregion, because according to how I understand it, the
          rings of power were a fruit of the cooperation of Sauron and the elven
          smiths, that is, none of them had conceived them before.

          I don't want to say that this is how it was, it's just another
          possibility:

          The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
          independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
          developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

          Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
          could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • calwen76
          ... I know he wasn t. But I think it was his nature to learn such things, he was originally one of the Aule s Maiar. ... matters of magic , I mean, for short
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
            > Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
            > Middle-Earth.

            I know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
            he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.

            > What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?

            You actually answered yourself:

            > We only know that they were used for matters of lore and for
            matters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
            tombs.

            Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
            the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
            able to rule them.

            > The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
            > independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
            > developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

            YAE

            > Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
            > could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

            possibly :))

            Lucy
          • machhezan
            ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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              Lucy wrote:
              > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

              Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
              Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

              You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
              might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
              he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
              high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
              language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
              see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
              therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

              The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

              ---------------------------
              j. 'mach' wust
              http://machhezan.tripod.com
              ---------------------------
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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                "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
                unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
                ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
                new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
                Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
                first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
                at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
                .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
                who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
                skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
                fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
                beware!'
                "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
                such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
                bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

                J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
              • calwen76
                ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

                  Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
                  Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

                  Lucy
                • machhezan
                  Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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                    Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
                    unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
                    language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
                    it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
                    minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
                    fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
                    inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
                    (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
                    that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
                    enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

                    So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                    dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                    The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
                    language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
                    from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
                    wholly different they must be distinguished."

                    I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
                    generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
                    tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
                    he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
                    Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

                    OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                    the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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                      On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

                      > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
                      > control of their minds,

                      Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
                      assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
                      language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
                      mind to surrender its will to him.

                      > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                      > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                      If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                      speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
                      as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
                      to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
                      his service -- and mastery.

                      And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
                      useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                      > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                      > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                      So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
                    • machhezan
                      ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
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                        Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                        > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                        > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                        > language as a tool.

                        Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                        thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                        people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                        the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                        total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                        allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                        The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                        believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                        linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                        requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                        appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                        interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                        would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                        perfectly agree with Carl:

                        > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                        > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                        So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                        we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                        used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                        the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                        Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                        tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                        Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                        confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                        slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                        and I think he'd manage without writing.

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
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