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Re: [elfscript] Re: questions on a passage in XII

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  • Melroch 'Aestan
    ... Since Adúnaic was spoken in Númenor its immediate predecessor must also have been spoken in Beleriand, and probably written too. I see no problem here.
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 18, 2004
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      At 11:45 18.2.2004, machhezan wrote:

      >What language could it have been used for in the First Age? Neither
      >for Quenya nor for Sindarin, I'd say, since I don't see any reason why
      >the orthographies of these languages would have changed. Maybe the
      >'general use' was made up for the transcription of mannnish tongues?
      >This would also explain why it was used in Númenor later.

      Since Adúnaic was spoken in Númenor its immediate
      predecessor must also have been spoken in Beleriand,
      and probably written too. I see no problem here.
      Also I see no reason why Sauron would have been to
      dim-witted to figure out the general principles
      of the script and adapt it to a language with
      palatalized sounds, independently of the Dúnedain.

      /BP 8^)
      --
      B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
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      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
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      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
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      "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
    • machhezan
      ... After all, he belonged to the company of Aule in the beginning. I rather believe there was a common basis for the ring inscription mode and for the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 19, 2004
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        Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
        > Also I see no reason why Sauron would have been to
        > dim-witted to figure out the general principles
        > of the script and adapt it to a language with
        > palatalized sounds, independently of the Dúnedain.

        After all, he belonged to the company of Aule in the beginning.

        I rather believe there was a common basis for the ring inscription
        mode and for the 'general use'. If we suppose that all original
        Noldorin modes used calmatéma for velars (backed up by Imrahil's
        excellent observation, see elfscript #2340), then it would seem
        strange to me that independently both Sauron and the Dúnedain (or
        their Elvish teachers) decided to abandon the use of calmatéma for
        velars in order to use it for (palat-)alveolars.

        Okay, we can find a certain logic, that is, there could be a reason
        why the general use might have been developed independently by
        different people:

        open lúvar - front tongue (t, ch) (especially with palatalveolars)

        closed lúvar - other (p, k)

        lúvar on the right - anterior (p, t)

        lúvar on the left - posterior (ch, k)

        Hm, that's a good argument against what I've written above... :) So
        you're right, the general use might have been developed independently
        by Sauron.

        ---------------------------
        j. 'mach' wust
        http://machhezan.tripod.com
        ---------------------------
      • calwen76
        ... We (me and my boyfriend) have been discussing this for almost three days!!! Where does the mode on the One Ring come from? We considered everything and
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 20, 2004
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:

          We (me and my boyfriend) have been discussing this for almost three
          days!!! Where does the mode on the One Ring come from? We considered
          everything and there are two possibilities:

          Sauron having known the Black speech applied it for Tengwar himself
          alone, he was skilful and had to know Tengwar for Quenya either from
          Morgoth himself (Morgoth had to know it from Valinor) or from the
          Elves they tortured. So he could easily apply this script to Black
          speech 1) before Men came to Middle-earth or 2) at the latest after
          their coming when calmatéma was proposed to be used for palatals and
          quessetéma for velars.

          To support the first theory see the tengwa for _sh_ in _ash_. I know
          nothing about Black speech grammar but why are the sequences written
          together? To save the place on the ring?

          I think it is impossible (yes, I changed my mind again) that Sauron
          would have learnt this mode from early Númenorean marriners - they
          started to go on Númenor in 32/II, having come there rarely still.
          Sauron was not meeting them much, he concentrated more on Elves who
          he wanted to rule the most. But in that time this mode had to be done
          since already in that time he knew he will make the One Ring (around
          1000 I guess). The Three Rings of Power were made in around 1500 (the
          last of all Rings of Power). I think this is enough :o) I need to
          sleep!!! :o)

          Lucy
        • machhezan
          ... But the Tale of Years (app. B of the Lord of the Rings) has the following entry for the year c. 1000 of the Second Age: Sauron, alarmed by the growing
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 3 5:03 AM
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            Lucy wrote:
            > I think it is impossible (yes, I changed my mind again)
            > that Sauron would have learnt this mode from early
            > Númenorean marriners - they started to go on Númenor in
            > 32/II, having come there rarely still. Sauron was not
            > meeting them much, he concentrated more on Elves who he
            > wanted to rule the most. But in that time this mode had to
            > be done since already in that time he knew he will make
            > the One Ring (around 1000 I guess). The Three Rings of
            > Power were made in around 1500 (the last of all Rings of
            > Power).

            But the Tale of Years (app. B of the Lord of the Rings) has the
            following entry for the year "c. 1000" of the Second Age:

            "Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses
            Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of
            Barad-dûr."

            That means that by this time, he had already contact to Númenoreans
            close enough as to know their strength.

            I assume it's the following passage of the Ring's of Power (in the
            Silmarillion) is the source of your comment that he first concentrated
            on Elves:

            "He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor
            who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth;
            but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs
            that he shaped in his heart. Men he found the easiest to sway of all
            the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to
            his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power (...)".

            The passage saying that he fears the men of Númenor is almost
            immediately followed by a passage saying that he swayed men most
            easily, there's only a comment on his mind inbetween. Only then comes
            the passage saying that he preferred the elves.

            So he knew the men of Númenor well enough as to fear them, and he
            swayed men. Númenoreans are men as well, so to me, this passage kind
            of insinuates that possibly some Númenoreans were swayed by him very
            early, which would perfectly fit with the passage from The Peoples of
            Middle-earth I've quoted in #3474.

            ---------------------------
            j. 'mach' wust
            http://machhezan.tripod.com
            ---------------------------
          • calwen76
            BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age: 1) the mode has nothing
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 3 5:39 AM
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              BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the One
              Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:
              1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it by
              himself
              HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
              Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals +
              Sauron was very skillful
              2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
              torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas Tirith -
              here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about such
              mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma for
              palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whether
              Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
              together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question of
              direction)

              The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt _Tengwar_
              from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being among
              both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
              known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just want
              to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he made his
              servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in that
              text that is actually not there :)

              Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
              Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
              about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he counted
              with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writing
              system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
              obviously.

              Lucy
            • aphadiol
              ... One ... by ... palatals + ... Tirith - ... for ... of ... _Tengwar_ ... want ... his ... counted ... It s quite nice but in the First Age the mode of
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 3 11:43 PM
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...>
                wrote:
                > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the
                One
                > Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:
                > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it
                by
                > himself
                > HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
                > Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the
                palatals +
                > Sauron was very skillful
                > 2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
                > torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas
                Tirith -
                > here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about such
                > mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma
                for
                > palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whether
                > Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
                > together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question
                of
                > direction)
                >
                > The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt
                _Tengwar_
                > from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being among
                > both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
                > known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just
                want
                > to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he made
                his
                > servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in that
                > text that is actually not there :)
                >
                > Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
                > Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
                > about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he
                counted
                > with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writing
                > system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
                > obviously.
                >
                > Lucy

                It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
                (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

                I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...
              • calwen76
                ... Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn t - by the lordmarsters opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is nowhere said that it
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4 12:35 AM
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                  Aphadiol teithant:
                  >It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
                  >(like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

                  Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn't -
                  by the lordmarsters' opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is
                  nowhere said that it was inappropriate for Westron neither. I prefer
                  the THEORY number 1 I wrote before. Since we don't have any Tengwar
                  text of Westron from either the First or the Second Age we can't say
                  what mode was used in that time for Westron. Look at the Ring
                  Inscription: the word _durbatuluuk_ (the last 'u' with a circumflex) -
                  is the double tehta (for long vowel) above the tengwa used in Gondor
                  mode of the Third Age??? The answer is: by our present knowledge -
                  NO. But such style is seen in Eorclanastas Namárie Inscription (i.e.
                  Third Age)- for Quenya. This BMO support my THEORY number 1. Of
                  course, the THEORY number 2 influes number 1 - Sauron had
                  become 'wiser' while capturing and torturing the peoples of ME.

                  BTW the inscription on the Moria Gate does show tehtar.

                  > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

                  He wouldn't have much time for it BMO. Eregion is Second Age, his
                  lord was beaten hollow at the end of the First Age and he escaped to
                  Mordor, hiding himself for some time, thinking of how to come back
                  and finally get 'those bloody Elves' under his rule. So, at the very
                  most he could learn it from Eregion Elves (not Men=Númenoreans) in
                  the beginning of the Second Age when having given advices to Elven
                  smiths. But then the double tehta for long vowels had to be used
                  already. For what language? It is true that in that time, the Elves
                  were 'immingled' either among themselfes or with Men. So the
                  knowledge or awareness of various modes for various languages is
                  logical. But still, it's all assumption.

                  Lucy
                • machhezan
                  ... We don t know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode known as mode of
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4 8:23 AM
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                    aphadiol wrote:
                    > It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand
                    > was used (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use
                    > tehtar at all...
                    >
                    > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

                    We don't know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to
                    assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode
                    known as "mode of Beleriand", like on the Door of Moria. Of course,
                    this name suggests that the same orthography was already used in
                    Beleriand, that is, in the First Age.

                    Lucy wrote:
                    > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode
                    > on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode
                    > already in the First Age:

                    I don't deny these two possibilities, I'd just like to add the third
                    one that he could have acquired the mode from early corrupted
                    Númenroean mariners, as I've pointed out in message #3529.

                    > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron
                    > invented it by himself HOW: he had to know Tengwar in
                    > general from Valinor already

                    Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
                    Middle-Earth.

                    I can't imagine that Morgoth would have teached Sauron how to use the
                    tengwar he could have learned in Valinor, since I believe it's very
                    unlikely that Morgoth would have any interest in matters of writing,
                    after all in a writing system invented by Feanor. Though we can't
                    exclude the possibility, however unlikely it is.

                    > + the Black Speech has the
                    > same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals + Sauron
                    > was very skillful

                    I agree with these reasons. They imply that Sauron knew other tengwar
                    orthographies during the wars of the Silmarilli, like in the second
                    possibility you admit, only that in that second possibility Sauron
                    would know the 'general use' itself.

                    What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies? I
                    think he would only have an interest for them if his enemies used the
                    script for the war, e.g., for secret messages. However, we don't know
                    if the tengwar were ever used for such purposes in the First Age. We
                    only know that they were used for matters of lore and for matters of
                    'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or tombs. So I
                    believe it's possible that despite much torturing of elves and men,
                    Sauron wouldn't have learned the tengwar in the First Age because he
                    could think that they weren't of any importance.

                    His interest for the tengwar might have arisen only when he wanted to
                    forge the One Ring, that is, when he needed the tengwar for magics. I
                    doubt that this intention would come up before he had contact with the
                    elven smiths of Eregion, because according to how I understand it, the
                    rings of power were a fruit of the cooperation of Sauron and the elven
                    smiths, that is, none of them had conceived them before.

                    I don't want to say that this is how it was, it's just another
                    possibility:

                    The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
                    independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
                    developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

                    Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
                    could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
                  • calwen76
                    ... I know he wasn t. But I think it was his nature to learn such things, he was originally one of the Aule s Maiar. ... matters of magic , I mean, for short
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 5 3:00 AM
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                      > Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
                      > Middle-Earth.

                      I know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
                      he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.

                      > What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?

                      You actually answered yourself:

                      > We only know that they were used for matters of lore and for
                      matters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
                      tombs.

                      Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
                      the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
                      able to rule them.

                      > The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
                      > independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
                      > developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

                      YAE

                      > Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
                      > could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

                      possibly :))

                      Lucy
                    • machhezan
                      ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 5 6:39 AM
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                        Lucy wrote:
                        > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

                        Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
                        Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

                        You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
                        might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
                        he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
                        high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
                        language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
                        see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
                        therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

                        The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 5 7:37 AM
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                          "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
                          unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
                          ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
                          new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
                          Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
                          first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
                          at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
                          .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
                          who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
                          skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
                          fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
                          beware!'
                          "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
                          such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
                          bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

                          J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
                        • calwen76
                          ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 5 10:46 AM
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                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                            wrote:
                            > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

                            Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
                            Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

                            Lucy
                          • machhezan
                            Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 7 4:13 AM
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                              Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
                              unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
                              language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
                              it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
                              minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
                              fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
                              inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
                              (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
                              that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
                              enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

                              So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                              dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                              The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
                              language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
                              from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
                              wholly different they must be distinguished."

                              I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
                              generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
                              tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
                              he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
                              Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

                              OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                              the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                              ---------------------------
                              j. 'mach' wust
                              http://machhezan.tripod.com
                              ---------------------------
                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                              ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 7 6:26 AM
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                                On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

                                > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
                                > control of their minds,

                                Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
                                assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
                                language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
                                mind to surrender its will to him.

                                > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                                > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                                If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                                speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
                                as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
                                to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
                                his service -- and mastery.

                                And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
                                useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                                > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                                > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                                So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
                              • machhezan
                                ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 7 1:09 PM
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                                  Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                  > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                                  > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                                  > language as a tool.

                                  Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                                  thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                                  people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                                  the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                                  total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                                  allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                                  The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                                  believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                                  linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                                  requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                                  appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                                  interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                                  would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                                  perfectly agree with Carl:

                                  > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                                  > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                                  So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                                  we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                                  used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                                  the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                                  Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                                  tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                                  Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                                  confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                                  slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                                  and I think he'd manage without writing.

                                  ---------------------------
                                  j. 'mach' wust
                                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                  ---------------------------
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