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questions on a passage in XII

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  • machhezan
    The late essay _Of Dwarves and Men_ (in _The Peoples of Middle-earth, The History of Middle-Earth, part XII_, it dates from about 1969 if I m not wrong)
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 17, 2004
      The late essay _Of Dwarves and Men_ (in _The Peoples of Middle-earth,
      The History of Middle-Earth, part XII_, it dates from about 1969 if
      I'm not wrong) contains a highly interesting analysis of the writing
      habits of the dwarves. At the very beginning (only in the third
      paragraph), there's a passage that seems quite mysterious to me. Maybe
      someone can help me interpreting it.

      The passage says that the dwarves "quickly" "reckognized the
      usefulness of the Elvish" scripts when they knew them and that this
      happened in Eregion. Then comes what is mysterious to me: "Now in
      Eregion not only the Fëanorian Script, which had long become a mode of
      writing generally used (with various adaptations) among all 'lettered'
      peoples in contact with the Númenórean settlements,^6^ but also the
      ancient 'runic' alphabet of Daeron elaborated [> used] by the Sindar
      was known and used."

      Footnote 6 reads: "Including their enemies such as Sauron, and his
      higher servants who were in fact partly of Númenórean origin."

      That passage sounds as if the people of Eregion learned the tengwar
      from the Númenoreans. Of course, it was rather the other way round:
      It's not impossible that some people of Eregion had teached the
      fathers of the edain how to write (it's only highly hypothetical).

      So this can't be meant by this passage. Now, the footnote seems to
      affirm that Sauron learnt the tengwar from the Númenoreans. But how is
      this possible? In the beginning, his main interest was to dominate the
      elves, and after all, by the time the One Ring was forged, the
      Númenoreans had only started to sail to Middle-Earth.

      The mode of the ring inscription is, however, very similar if not
      identical to the modes used by the Gondorians, that is, to the Westron
      mode or general use. So if Sauron had learned the tengwar from the
      Númenoreans, this coincidence would be explained. But how could he?

      Do we have to assume that J. R. R. Tolkien wanted to explain why the
      One Ring has an inscription in a Númenorean mode but forgot that the
      chronology of the Second Age hardly allowed Sauron to learn anything
      from the Númenoreans but much later? Or do we have to assume that he
      wanted to change the chronology of the Númenoreans coming to
      Middle-Earth? Or have I misunderstood the paragraph cited above and
      there's another source for the mode of the Ring inscription?

      ---------------------------
      j. 'mach' wust
      http://machhezan.tripod.com
      ---------------------------
    • calwen76
      ... earth, ... Maybe ... I think that the footnote is somewhat misleading but the truth is of course that Sauron knew the script for a long time ever since the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 17, 2004
        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
        > The late essay _Of Dwarves and Men_ (in _The Peoples of Middle-
        earth,
        > The History of Middle-Earth, part XII_, it dates from about 1969 if
        > I'm not wrong) contains a highly interesting analysis of the writing
        > habits of the dwarves. At the very beginning (only in the third
        > paragraph), there's a passage that seems quite mysterious to me.
        Maybe
        > someone can help me interpreting it.

        I think that the footnote is somewhat misleading but the truth is of
        course that Sauron knew the script for a long time ever since the
        First Age. Let us not forget that he was serving Morgoth in Beleriand
        (and thus came into contact with Elves and Men) and certainly their
        speech and writing. As a Maia he would surely have no problem
        learning it quickly and using it.
        Then, Sauron came to Númenor to seduce and subjugate its people and
        in that time he had to know the scripts. It was him who taught and at
        last seduced the Elven smiths in 1200 (after Gil-galad refused to
        deal with him)* so it is quite impossible the Númenoreans would teach
        Sauron such things.
        *See Appendixes to The Lord of the Rings - the chronology one.

        Some of the higher servants of Sauron the footnote speaks about
        originate from Númenor since the Númenoreans were much easier to
        manage than the Elves. BMO the footnote just wants to remark that
        all 'lettered' peoples of that time who knew the script were in touch
        with Númenor INCLUDING the bad ones (like Sauron and his servants
        that he seduced - including these of Númenor race). I think
        Silmarillion tells about this quite a lot.

        Lucy
      • machhezan
        ... So you re affirming that the general use (as employed on the One Ring) was either already used in the First Age or developped independently by Sauron and
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 18, 2004
          Luthy wrote:
          > the truth is of
          > course that Sauron knew the script for a long time ever since the
          > First Age. Let us not forget that he was serving Morgoth in
          > Beleriand (and thus came into contact with Elves and Men) and
          > certainly their speech and writing.

          So you're affirming that the 'general use' (as employed on the One
          Ring) was either already used in the First Age or developped
          independently by Sauron and by the Númenoreans.

          What language could it have been used for in the First Age? Neither
          for Quenya nor for Sindarin, I'd say, since I don't see any reason why
          the orthographies of these languages would have changed. Maybe the
          'general use' was made up for the transcription of mannnish tongues?
          This would also explain why it was used in Númenor later.

          ---------------------------
          j. 'mach' wust
          http://machhezan.tripod.com
          ---------------------------
        • Melroch 'Aestan
          ... Since Adúnaic was spoken in Númenor its immediate predecessor must also have been spoken in Beleriand, and probably written too. I see no problem here.
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 18, 2004
            At 11:45 18.2.2004, machhezan wrote:

            >What language could it have been used for in the First Age? Neither
            >for Quenya nor for Sindarin, I'd say, since I don't see any reason why
            >the orthographies of these languages would have changed. Maybe the
            >'general use' was made up for the transcription of mannnish tongues?
            >This would also explain why it was used in Númenor later.

            Since Adúnaic was spoken in Númenor its immediate
            predecessor must also have been spoken in Beleriand,
            and probably written too. I see no problem here.
            Also I see no reason why Sauron would have been to
            dim-witted to figure out the general principles
            of the script and adapt it to a language with
            palatalized sounds, independently of the Dúnedain.

            /BP 8^)
            --
            B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
            "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
          • calwen76
            ... I think you re overlooking one important thing: let me remind you who were the Númenoreans these were the Edain who settled in Númenor (they started to
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 18, 2004
              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
              > So you're affirming that the 'general use' (as employed on the One
              > Ring) was either already used in the First Age or developped
              > independently by Sauron and by the Númenoreans.

              I think you're overlooking one important thing: let me remind you who
              were the Númenoreans > these were the Edain who settled in Númenor
              (they started to come to Númenor in the year 32 of the 2nd Age) which
              they "got as a present" from the Valar for their help in wars against
              Morgoth and his servants. So it means that the Edain had been
              learning Tengwar and maybe Cirth from the Eldar already in the First
              Age. AS WELL AS they had been seduced and carried away by Morgoth's
              servants including Sauron (one of the highest ones) who walked among
              both Eldar and Edain and pretended care already in the First Age.

              So I am saying that the mode or style on the One Ring is a style that
              had originated in Valinor, have come to Beleriand where it was
              adopted by Eldar, Edain and maybe by other houses of Elves AS WELL AS
              Sauron (I suppose those little Orcs and Belroeg weren't sitting in
              their cages reading Morgoth's Fairy-tales) learnt Tengwar, used it
              and adopted it to the Black speech even before the One Ring was
              forged. (I dont't know if it's possible that Morgoth would have used
              anything "Elvish" since he hated Elves the most - which leads me to a
              question: what scribe did he use? If anything it had to be rotten.)

              The mode on the One Ring looks like the mannish/Gondor one (KL) and I
              think this was Sauron's particular purpose since he was wearing the
              ring - with a scribe known to and used by the Edain who probably had
              no knowledge of the Black speech and could have thought that the
              inscription had been possibly of Elven kind - when going to Númenor
              (of course this could not happen sooner than the One Ring was forged
              around 1600).

              > What language could it have been used for in the First Age? Neither
              > for Quenya nor for Sindarin, I'd say, since I don't see any reason
              why the orthographies of these languages would have changed. Maybe
              the 'general use' was made up for the transcription of mannnish
              tongues? This would also explain why it was used in Númenor later.

              Yes, of course for "Mannish" as I explained above. And for Sauron's
              purpose for the Black speech, why not? In _Morgoth's Ring_ (I think)
              there is an essay about the difference in between Morgoth and Sauron.
              It is said that Sauron was actually more clever than Morgoth since he
              hadn't intended to DESTROY but rather DOMINATE the peoples but
              Morgoth had been giving all his power to DESTROY the peoples until he
              emptied himself and weakened. So there is a chance to believe that
              Sauron used more cunning ways in seducing the minds than Morgoth and
              though he could have used the Black speech inscription on the One
              Ring having it hidden under the mode/style of script known to all
              Middle-earth peoples.

              Lucy
            • machhezan
              ... If we assume that it originated in Valinor, then there must have been a language that required the calmatéma to represent palatals (or palatalveolars),
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 18, 2004
                Lucy wrote:
                > So I am saying that the mode or style on the One Ring is a style
                > that had originated in Valinor,

                If we assume that it originated in Valinor, then there must have been
                a language that required the calmatéma to represent palatals (or
                palatalveolars), which is the most remarkable feature of the 'general
                use' as opposed to the ancient Elvish modes, the 'classical' Quenya
                mode and the Beleriandic Sindarin mode (the latter, of course, not
                Valinorean, but still old). An alternative Quenya orthography? A
                Valarin-mode?

                I believe that Imrahil's right in pointing out that in the original
                tengwar system, the calmatéms was for velars and the quessetéma for
                labialized velars, see elfscript #2340, and I believe it was only in
                the swift changings of the dying lands where that concept was
                abandoned.

                > (I dont't know if it's possible that Morgoth would have used
                > anything "Elvish" since he hated Elves the most - which leads me to
                > a question: what scribe did he use? If anything it had to be
                > rotten.)

                I don't think he would use any writing system at all. The tengwar are
                not only Elvish, but Feanorian, but that's not the point. He had other
                ways to control peoples, so what for should he want to write? Neither
                did the Valar have a writing system.

                > The mode on the One Ring looks like the mannish/Gondor one (KL) and
                > I think this was Sauron's particular purpose since he was wearing
                > the ring - with a scribe known to and used by the Edain who probably
                > had no knowledge of the Black speech and could have thought that the
                > inscription had been possibly of Elven kind - when going to Númenor
                > (of course this could not happen sooner than the One Ring was forged
                > around 1600).

                You'll hardly affirm that the Ring inscription wasn't made until
                Sauron knew that he was going to Númenor. I don't think that the Ring
                was ever altered. And anyway, the Ring wasn't intended ever to leave
                Sauron's hand, and even if it would, who could think that the ring
                inscription were Elvish of any kind (even if that person wouldn't know
                the mode for sure)?

                Resuming my point of view: The 'general use' was devised in the First
                Age for mannish tongues. Sauron knew it either then or from early
                Númenorean mariners. At the end of the Third Age (and we don't know
                since when), Gondorian men used that mode for Elvish tongues, for
                unknown reasons.

                ---------------------------
                j. 'mach' wust
                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                ---------------------------
              • calwen76
                ... I wanted to say that actually all Tengwar modes are ancestors of one mode and that is the first Tengwar mode ever - the one Fëanor created. As it is
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 19, 2004
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                  Lucy wrote:
                  >> So I am saying that the mode or style on the One Ring is a style
                  >> that had originated in Valinor,

                  >If we assume that it originated in Valinor, then there must have
                  > been a language that required the calmatéma to represent palatals
                  >(or palatalveolars), which is the most remarkable feature of
                  > the 'general use' as opposed to the ancient Elvish modes,
                  > the 'classical' Quenya mode and the Beleriandic Sindarin mode (the
                  > latter, of course, not Valinorean, but still old). An alternative
                  > Quenya orthography? A Valarin-mode?

                  I wanted to say that actually all Tengwar modes are ancestors of one
                  mode and that is the first Tengwar mode ever - the one Fëanor
                  created. As it is explicitly said in the Appendix E to the Lord of
                  the Rings, this system was adopted by other peoples as it's been
                  getting abroad Valinor. This was the only thing I meant when having
                  said this. Of course such mode was not devised in Valinor but in
                  Middle-earth, after Men came there from the East and met the Elves.
                  On their way from the East Men had to speak and though they made a
                  language on their own. When they met the Elves they no doubt
                  exchanged their knowledge actually it is said that Men were taught by
                  Elves in many ways. In that time (which is still the First Age) Men
                  had to come in touch with Tengwar and they logically have adopted it
                  to their own language which is again explicitly said in the Appendix
                  E that Tengwar was adopted by many peoples. So I agree with you here:

                  > Resuming my point of view: The 'general use' was devised in the
                  > First Age for mannish tongues.

                  > who could think that the ring inscription were Elvish of any kind
                  > (even if that person wouldn't know the mode for sure)?

                  People who didn't know Elvish - only Tengwar.

                  > Sauron knew it either then or from early Númenorean mariners.

                  I can't agree with you here.

                  > At the end of the Third Age (and we don't know since when),
                  Gondorian men used that mode for Elvish tongues, for unknown reasons.

                  Are these reasons really so unknown that they cannot be guessed or
                  logically derived?

                  Lucy
                • machhezan
                  ... Elvish is beautiful, Black Speech is ugly. ... Where would he learn it then? ... It s very strange that the orthography of the language of lore and high
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 19, 2004
                    I wrote:
                    > > who could think that the ring inscription were Elvish of any kind
                    > > (even if that person wouldn't know the mode for sure)?

                    Lucy answered:
                    > People who didn't know Elvish - only Tengwar.

                    Elvish is beautiful, Black Speech is ugly.

                    > > Sauron knew it either then [First Age] or from early Númenorean
                    > > mariners.
                    >
                    > I can't agree with you here.

                    Where would he learn it then?

                    > > At the end of the Third Age (and we don't know since when),
                    > > Gondorian men used that mode for Elvish tongues, for unknown
                    > > reasons.
                    >
                    > Are these reasons really so unknown that they cannot be guessed or
                    > logically derived?

                    It's very strange that the orthography of the language of lore and
                    high cultural prestige would be changed, especially if it isn't but a
                    language of the learned. Imagine the Latin orthography would have been
                    adapted to the English one! Even the Greek orthography was retained in
                    spite of the different alphabet.

                    The most likely reason I see of is the decay of Gondor. Maybe in the
                    pride of Númenor, before the Elvish tongues were forbidden at all,
                    their special orthographies had to be given up in favour of a
                    Númenorean orthography, and the peoples of Númenor got so used to this
                    spelling (which would take two or three generations) that not even the
                    elendili changed it. It's unlikely that the first learned the Elvish
                    tongues without their special orthographies and then applied their own
                    mannish orthography to it in the first or the second age.

                    ---------------------------
                    j. 'mach' wust
                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                    ---------------------------
                  • calwen76
                    ... Mach wrote: who could think that the ring inscription were Elvish of any kind (even if that person wouldn t know the mode for sure)? ... There is no good
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 19, 2004
                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                      Mach wrote:
                      who could think that the ring inscription were Elvish of any kind
                      (even if that person wouldn't know the mode for sure)?

                      I answered:
                      > > People who didn't know Elvish - only Tengwar.

                      And she answered:
                      > Elvish is beautiful, Black Speech is ugly.

                      There is no good answer on this :o) You're right.

                      > > > Sauron knew it either then [First Age] or from early Númenorean
                      > > > mariners.
                      > >
                      > > I can't agree with you here.
                      >
                      > Where would he learn it then?

                      I have to admit I haven't read your sentence carefully. Here I would
                      agree, sure.

                      > It's very strange that the orthography of the language of lore and
                      > high cultural prestige would be changed, especially if it isn't but
                      a language of the learned. Imagine the Latin orthography would have
                      been adapted to the English one! Even the Greek orthography was
                      retained in spite of the different alphabet.

                      If I understand you well, you want to say that the mode of a Mannish
                      mode from the First Age would not much differ from the one in the
                      Third Age? If so I but agree.

                      > It's unlikely that the first learned the Elvish tongues without
                      > their special orthographies and then applied their own mannish
                      > orthography to it in the first or the second age.

                      My idea: I imagined how Men learned Tengwar. When they first met the
                      Elves what was it like? How did they speak? I suppose that the Elves
                      got first familiar with Mannish tongue than the opposite way. Once
                      they've become able to speak with each other (in Mannish) I think it
                      were actually the Elves who proposed how to write in Tengwar to Men
                      since they were more skilled than Men in such things (I mean
                      languages in particular) - teaching them among other things how to
                      speak in Sindarin - I mean probably only the highest lords of the
                      Three Houses. This would BMO also support the 'theory' that the
                      Mannish Tengwar mode was already set in the First Age and was more or
                      less fully developed in the Second Age when Elvish was forbidden in
                      Númenor. The development would take more time I guess, not only two
                      or three generations of Men. Just an idea.

                      Lucy
                    • machhezan
                      ... After all, he belonged to the company of Aule in the beginning. I rather believe there was a common basis for the ring inscription mode and for the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 19, 2004
                        Melroch 'Aestan wrote:
                        > Also I see no reason why Sauron would have been to
                        > dim-witted to figure out the general principles
                        > of the script and adapt it to a language with
                        > palatalized sounds, independently of the Dúnedain.

                        After all, he belonged to the company of Aule in the beginning.

                        I rather believe there was a common basis for the ring inscription
                        mode and for the 'general use'. If we suppose that all original
                        Noldorin modes used calmatéma for velars (backed up by Imrahil's
                        excellent observation, see elfscript #2340), then it would seem
                        strange to me that independently both Sauron and the Dúnedain (or
                        their Elvish teachers) decided to abandon the use of calmatéma for
                        velars in order to use it for (palat-)alveolars.

                        Okay, we can find a certain logic, that is, there could be a reason
                        why the general use might have been developed independently by
                        different people:

                        open lúvar - front tongue (t, ch) (especially with palatalveolars)

                        closed lúvar - other (p, k)

                        lúvar on the right - anterior (p, t)

                        lúvar on the left - posterior (ch, k)

                        Hm, that's a good argument against what I've written above... :) So
                        you're right, the general use might have been developed independently
                        by Sauron.

                        ---------------------------
                        j. 'mach' wust
                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                        ---------------------------
                      • calwen76
                        ... We (me and my boyfriend) have been discussing this for almost three days!!! Where does the mode on the One Ring come from? We considered everything and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 20, 2004
                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:

                          We (me and my boyfriend) have been discussing this for almost three
                          days!!! Where does the mode on the One Ring come from? We considered
                          everything and there are two possibilities:

                          Sauron having known the Black speech applied it for Tengwar himself
                          alone, he was skilful and had to know Tengwar for Quenya either from
                          Morgoth himself (Morgoth had to know it from Valinor) or from the
                          Elves they tortured. So he could easily apply this script to Black
                          speech 1) before Men came to Middle-earth or 2) at the latest after
                          their coming when calmatéma was proposed to be used for palatals and
                          quessetéma for velars.

                          To support the first theory see the tengwa for _sh_ in _ash_. I know
                          nothing about Black speech grammar but why are the sequences written
                          together? To save the place on the ring?

                          I think it is impossible (yes, I changed my mind again) that Sauron
                          would have learnt this mode from early Númenorean marriners - they
                          started to go on Númenor in 32/II, having come there rarely still.
                          Sauron was not meeting them much, he concentrated more on Elves who
                          he wanted to rule the most. But in that time this mode had to be done
                          since already in that time he knew he will make the One Ring (around
                          1000 I guess). The Three Rings of Power were made in around 1500 (the
                          last of all Rings of Power). I think this is enough :o) I need to
                          sleep!!! :o)

                          Lucy
                        • machhezan
                          ... But the Tale of Years (app. B of the Lord of the Rings) has the following entry for the year c. 1000 of the Second Age: Sauron, alarmed by the growing
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                            Lucy wrote:
                            > I think it is impossible (yes, I changed my mind again)
                            > that Sauron would have learnt this mode from early
                            > Númenorean marriners - they started to go on Númenor in
                            > 32/II, having come there rarely still. Sauron was not
                            > meeting them much, he concentrated more on Elves who he
                            > wanted to rule the most. But in that time this mode had to
                            > be done since already in that time he knew he will make
                            > the One Ring (around 1000 I guess). The Three Rings of
                            > Power were made in around 1500 (the last of all Rings of
                            > Power).

                            But the Tale of Years (app. B of the Lord of the Rings) has the
                            following entry for the year "c. 1000" of the Second Age:

                            "Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses
                            Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of
                            Barad-dûr."

                            That means that by this time, he had already contact to Númenoreans
                            close enough as to know their strength.

                            I assume it's the following passage of the Ring's of Power (in the
                            Silmarillion) is the source of your comment that he first concentrated
                            on Elves:

                            "He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor
                            who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth;
                            but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs
                            that he shaped in his heart. Men he found the easiest to sway of all
                            the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to
                            his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power (...)".

                            The passage saying that he fears the men of Númenor is almost
                            immediately followed by a passage saying that he swayed men most
                            easily, there's only a comment on his mind inbetween. Only then comes
                            the passage saying that he preferred the elves.

                            So he knew the men of Númenor well enough as to fear them, and he
                            swayed men. Númenoreans are men as well, so to me, this passage kind
                            of insinuates that possibly some Númenoreans were swayed by him very
                            early, which would perfectly fit with the passage from The Peoples of
                            Middle-earth I've quoted in #3474.

                            ---------------------------
                            j. 'mach' wust
                            http://machhezan.tripod.com
                            ---------------------------
                          • calwen76
                            BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age: 1) the mode has nothing
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                              BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the One
                              Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:
                              1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it by
                              himself
                              HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
                              Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals +
                              Sauron was very skillful
                              2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
                              torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas Tirith -
                              here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about such
                              mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma for
                              palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whether
                              Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
                              together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question of
                              direction)

                              The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt _Tengwar_
                              from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being among
                              both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
                              known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just want
                              to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he made his
                              servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in that
                              text that is actually not there :)

                              Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
                              Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
                              about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he counted
                              with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writing
                              system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
                              obviously.

                              Lucy
                            • aphadiol
                              ... One ... by ... palatals + ... Tirith - ... for ... of ... _Tengwar_ ... want ... his ... counted ... It s quite nice but in the First Age the mode of
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 3, 2004
                                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calwen76" <calwen.rudh@s...>
                                wrote:
                                > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode on the
                                One
                                > Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode already in the First Age:
                                > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron invented it
                                by
                                > himself
                                > HOW: he had to know Tengwar in general from Valinor already + the
                                > Black Speech has the same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the
                                palatals +
                                > Sauron was very skillful
                                > 2) he acquainted with the mode already in the First Age while
                                > torturing both Elves and Men either in Angband or in ex-Minas
                                Tirith -
                                > here it does not matter whether Men or Elves told him about such
                                > mode (still giving him just an idea with the usage of calmatéma
                                for
                                > palatals) because they both had to know it, we don't know whether
                                > Elves taught Men or Men adopted Tengwar from Elves or they
                                > together 'invented' the mode for Westron (it's just the question
                                of
                                > direction)
                                >
                                > The footnote BMO doesn't want to affirm that Sauron learnt
                                _Tengwar_
                                > from Númenoreans, it is not possible - imagine Sauron being among
                                > both Elves (and later also) Men for the whole First Age not having
                                > known there's _some Tengwar_, it's ridiculous. The footnote just
                                want
                                > to say that Sauron captured some of the Númenoreans and he made
                                his
                                > servants of them. Dot. I think you just see something more in that
                                > text that is actually not there :)
                                >
                                > Long ago in the First Age he was thinking about how to subdue the
                                > Elves not only how to fight against them. He had to start thinking
                                > about the One Ring already in the First Age and for sure he
                                counted
                                > with some inscription/magic spell on it and what was the writing
                                > system of that time that was used for so soft a work? The Tengwar,
                                > obviously.
                                >
                                > Lucy

                                It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
                                (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

                                I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...
                              • calwen76
                                ... Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn t - by the lordmarsters opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is nowhere said that it
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
                                  Aphadiol teithant:
                                  >It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand was used
                                  >(like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use tehtar at all...

                                  Why was the Beleriand mode invented? Because the tehta mode wasn't -
                                  by the lordmarsters' opinion - appropriate for SINDARIN. It is
                                  nowhere said that it was inappropriate for Westron neither. I prefer
                                  the THEORY number 1 I wrote before. Since we don't have any Tengwar
                                  text of Westron from either the First or the Second Age we can't say
                                  what mode was used in that time for Westron. Look at the Ring
                                  Inscription: the word _durbatuluuk_ (the last 'u' with a circumflex) -
                                  is the double tehta (for long vowel) above the tengwa used in Gondor
                                  mode of the Third Age??? The answer is: by our present knowledge -
                                  NO. But such style is seen in Eorclanastas Namárie Inscription (i.e.
                                  Third Age)- for Quenya. This BMO support my THEORY number 1. Of
                                  course, the THEORY number 2 influes number 1 - Sauron had
                                  become 'wiser' while capturing and torturing the peoples of ME.

                                  BTW the inscription on the Moria Gate does show tehtar.

                                  > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

                                  He wouldn't have much time for it BMO. Eregion is Second Age, his
                                  lord was beaten hollow at the end of the First Age and he escaped to
                                  Mordor, hiding himself for some time, thinking of how to come back
                                  and finally get 'those bloody Elves' under his rule. So, at the very
                                  most he could learn it from Eregion Elves (not Men=Númenoreans) in
                                  the beginning of the Second Age when having given advices to Elven
                                  smiths. But then the double tehta for long vowels had to be used
                                  already. For what language? It is true that in that time, the Elves
                                  were 'immingled' either among themselfes or with Men. So the
                                  knowledge or awareness of various modes for various languages is
                                  logical. But still, it's all assumption.

                                  Lucy
                                • machhezan
                                  ... We don t know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode known as mode of
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 4, 2004
                                    aphadiol wrote:
                                    > It's quite nice but in the First Age the mode of Beleriand
                                    > was used (like on the Door of Moria) and that doesn't use
                                    > tehtar at all...
                                    >
                                    > I thin he learned it when he was is Eregion as Annatar...

                                    We don't know what mode was used in the First Age, but we have to
                                    assume that in the Second Age, the people of Eregion used the mode
                                    known as "mode of Beleriand", like on the Door of Moria. Of course,
                                    this name suggests that the same orthography was already used in
                                    Beleriand, that is, in the First Age.

                                    Lucy wrote:
                                    > BMO there are two possible ways how Sauron knew the mode
                                    > on the One Ring, both assuming that he knew the mode
                                    > already in the First Age:

                                    I don't deny these two possibilities, I'd just like to add the third
                                    one that he could have acquired the mode from early corrupted
                                    Númenroean mariners, as I've pointed out in message #3529.

                                    > 1) the mode has nothing to do with Númenoreans, Sauron
                                    > invented it by himself HOW: he had to know Tengwar in
                                    > general from Valinor already

                                    Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
                                    Middle-Earth.

                                    I can't imagine that Morgoth would have teached Sauron how to use the
                                    tengwar he could have learned in Valinor, since I believe it's very
                                    unlikely that Morgoth would have any interest in matters of writing,
                                    after all in a writing system invented by Feanor. Though we can't
                                    exclude the possibility, however unlikely it is.

                                    > + the Black Speech has the
                                    > same 'structure' as Westron, i.e. the palatals + Sauron
                                    > was very skillful

                                    I agree with these reasons. They imply that Sauron knew other tengwar
                                    orthographies during the wars of the Silmarilli, like in the second
                                    possibility you admit, only that in that second possibility Sauron
                                    would know the 'general use' itself.

                                    What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies? I
                                    think he would only have an interest for them if his enemies used the
                                    script for the war, e.g., for secret messages. However, we don't know
                                    if the tengwar were ever used for such purposes in the First Age. We
                                    only know that they were used for matters of lore and for matters of
                                    'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or tombs. So I
                                    believe it's possible that despite much torturing of elves and men,
                                    Sauron wouldn't have learned the tengwar in the First Age because he
                                    could think that they weren't of any importance.

                                    His interest for the tengwar might have arisen only when he wanted to
                                    forge the One Ring, that is, when he needed the tengwar for magics. I
                                    doubt that this intention would come up before he had contact with the
                                    elven smiths of Eregion, because according to how I understand it, the
                                    rings of power were a fruit of the cooperation of Sauron and the elven
                                    smiths, that is, none of them had conceived them before.

                                    I don't want to say that this is how it was, it's just another
                                    possibility:

                                    The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
                                    independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
                                    developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

                                    Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
                                    could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

                                    ---------------------------
                                    j. 'mach' wust
                                    http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                    ---------------------------
                                  • calwen76
                                    ... I know he wasn t. But I think it was his nature to learn such things, he was originally one of the Aule s Maiar. ... matters of magic , I mean, for short
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
                                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "machhezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                                      > Sauron wasn't ever in Valinor. When Morgoth was captured, he hid in
                                      > Middle-Earth.

                                      I know he wasn't. But I think it was his nature to learn such things,
                                      he was originally one of the Aule's Maiar.

                                      > What interest would Sauron have for the scripts of their enemies?

                                      You actually answered yourself:

                                      > We only know that they were used for matters of lore and for
                                      matters of 'magic', I mean, for short inscriptions on weapons or
                                      tombs.

                                      Come on, he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice, he had to know
                                      the script for he had to learn everything about Elves so he would be
                                      able to rule them.

                                      > The orthographies of men and of Sauron could be originally
                                      > independent; Sauron could have known other tengwar orthographies and
                                      > developped the One Ring orthography by himself.

                                      YAE

                                      > Sauron's orthography could origin in the men's orthography; Sauron
                                      > could have learned it either in Beleriand or by Númenorean mariners.

                                      possibly :))

                                      Lucy
                                    • machhezan
                                      ... Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. And there, he wasn t nice at all... You re right, he was a Maia of Aule,
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
                                        Lucy wrote:
                                        > he was a spy, he had to pretend he's nice,

                                        Was he? I only remember that he sat in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of
                                        Werewolves. And there, he wasn't nice at all...

                                        You're right, he was a Maia of Aule, and he was a sorcerer, so he
                                        might have a natural interest for matters of writing. Though I imagine
                                        he would be contemptuous of that Elvish "magic" which is based on a
                                        high appreciation of language. I imagine that he wouldn't appreciate
                                        language at all. He would use it for controlling others, but he would
                                        see that it's a defective tool for the control of other minds and
                                        therefore prefer other tools, like fear or whatever.

                                        The tengwar are a fruit of the very Elvish appreciation of language.

                                        ---------------------------
                                        j. 'mach' wust
                                        http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                        ---------------------------
                                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                                        Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u nat_ and the unwill. And this weapon he found in language .... .... For in days of old, when the Valar
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
                                          "Therefore [Melkor] sought means to circumvent the _u'nat_ and the
                                          unwill. And this weapon he found in 'language'....
                                          ".... For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar
                                          new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of
                                          Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: '.... From the
                                          first [Melkor] was greatly interested in "language"...; but we did not
                                          at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it
                                          .... But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those
                                          who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great
                                          skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the
                                          fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you speak with him
                                          beware!'
                                          "'Alas!' says Pengolodh, 'in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with
                                          such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be
                                          bettered, scare equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters'."

                                          J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)
                                        • calwen76
                                          ... Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth. Lucy
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 5, 2004
                                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > J.R.R. Tolkien, _Ósanwe-kenta_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 39)

                                            Thanks a lot for this. This can explain that Sauron had learnt
                                            Tengwar and Quenya from Morgoth.

                                            Lucy
                                          • machhezan
                                            Thanks Carl, that s exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in language: It s a tool
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
                                              Thanks Carl, that's exactly the quote I was looking for, but I was
                                              unable to find it. It shows that the evil have only one interest in
                                              language: It's a tool that allows them to control others. However,
                                              it's an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the control of their
                                              minds, cf. some lines below: "(...) behind the words (even of those in
                                              fear and torment) dwells ever the _sáma_ [i.e. the mind, note by j.w.]
                                              inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed form it
                                              (as cries from behind a locked door) (...). Therefore, the Liar says
                                              that all words are lies (...). In this vast network he himself
                                              enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear."

                                              So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                                              dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                                              The Eldar, and especially the Noldor, had a very different interest in
                                              language: the pleasure in sounds and forms of words. To cite again
                                              from the Ósanwe-kenta: "Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind
                                              wholly different they must be distinguished."

                                              I doubt that kind of interest the evil have in language would also
                                              generate an interest in scripts. And even if Melkor had learned the
                                              tengwar, I don't believe (though I can't deny the possibility) that
                                              he'd teach them to Sauron, just as I don't believe he would teach him
                                              Quenya: How could this possibly serve his will of control?

                                              OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                                              the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                                              ---------------------------
                                              j. 'mach' wust
                                              http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                              ---------------------------
                                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                                              ... Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in language an ideal
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
                                                On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:13 AM, machhezan wrote:

                                                > However, [language is] an imperfect tool since it doesn't allow the
                                                > control of their minds,

                                                Exactly so; but then, nothing allows control of a mind other than the
                                                assent of the mind itself. And as Tolkien says, Melkor found in
                                                language an ideal tool for winning entry to a mind, and persuading the
                                                mind to surrender its will to him.

                                                > So I believe that despite all mastery of speech, the evil'd still
                                                > dislike speech profoundly, since it can't ever give them certainty.

                                                If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                                                speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of language
                                                as a tool. Through lies, half-truths, and distortions, Melkor was able
                                                to corrupt the mind and heart of others, and bring them willingly into
                                                his service -- and mastery.

                                                And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it find
                                                useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                                                > OT: Am I right in assuming that Carl's quote of the Ósanwe-kenta is
                                                > the only mention of a language of Morgoth?

                                                So far as I can recall at the moment, yes.
                                              • machhezan
                                                ... Through language, he can t force people s heart , but only their thoughts. I believe he d prefer a tool that allowed him to force people s heart
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 7, 2004
                                                  Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                                  > If I understand your point correctly, I think it is the ambiguity of
                                                  > speech that _attracted_ Melkor and his ilk to the potency of
                                                  > language as a tool.

                                                  Through language, he can't force people's "heart", but only their
                                                  thoughts. I believe he'd prefer a tool that allowed him to force
                                                  people's "heart" directly, but there's no such tool by Eru's design of
                                                  the world. So I think he dislikes language because it doesn't allow
                                                  total control. Of course, he employs it masterly because it still
                                                  allows much control, but nonetheless he dislikes it, I daresay.

                                                  The elves appreciated language highly, not as a tool, but by itself. I
                                                  believe that this is testified by their language lore: poetry,
                                                  linguistics, writing, because by my opinion this lore necessarily
                                                  requires appreciation of language by itself. Since the evil lack
                                                  appreciation of language by itself, I think that they don't have any
                                                  interest in language lore. So I think that neither Morgoth nor Sauron
                                                  would learn the tengwar unless it'd serve their purpose of control. I
                                                  perfectly agree with Carl:

                                                  > And I daresay that evil despises everything except that which it
                                                  > find useful for its own purposes, at any given time.

                                                  So if we want to speculate where Sauron could have learnt the tengwar,
                                                  we must ask: Where could it have served his purposes? If the elves
                                                  used the tengwar for secret messages in the war of the jewels, then
                                                  the tengwar would have served Sauron's purpose. We only know that
                                                  Sauron required the tengwar for the forging of the One Ring. Could the
                                                  tengwar have served him in some earlier sorcery? We don't know.
                                                  Neither do we know whether the tengwar served Morgoth to gain the
                                                  confidence of the Noldor. Could the tengwar have served to control his
                                                  slaves? I don't recall any evidence of it in the Lord of the Rings,
                                                  and I think he'd manage without writing.

                                                  ---------------------------
                                                  j. 'mach' wust
                                                  http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                                  ---------------------------
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