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Translation/transcription verification request

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  • Matthew
    My girlfriend and I are thinking about getting a simple tattoo of something elvish. I know, disgusting, isn t it? I would like to translate love (the
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 4, 2004
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      My girlfriend and I are thinking about getting a simple tattoo of
      something elvish. I know, disgusting, isn't it?
      I would like to translate "love" (the romantic, passionate kind) into
      Quenya and Sindarin (not sure which I want to use yet). I have
      gathered the translations from various dictionaries that I could find
      and combined them with TengScribe transcriptions of the elvish
      versions using three different fonts. I need someone to check out my
      translations to see which word most closely fits the kind of love I'm
      looking to permanently etch into my body. Also to check the
      transcription to make sure that TengScribe worked as it should have
      for the different fonts and translations.
      I have combined all this information into one file named "love.jpg"
      that I have uploaded into the Files section of this group as well as
      linked here: http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/elvishlove.jpg

      Thanks already. :-)
      Matthew (aka Gildhur for future MEO players)
    • calwen76
      ... Hello! here is my little help with the Sindarin part: the translation is correct :o) The transcription is also correct but you have it transcribed using
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 4, 2004
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <ftezebra@y...> wrote:
        > I have combined all this information into one file named "love.jpg"
        > that I have uploaded into the Files section of this group as well as
        > linked here: http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/elvishlove.jpg

        Hello!
        here is my little help with the Sindarin part: the translation is
        correct :o) The transcription is also correct but you have it
        transcribed using Beleriand mode (no vowel tehtas) only, what a pity.
        You could try this (in the parenthesis there's the number of the
        tengwa as it is set in the chart - see Appendix E to the Lord of the
        Rings and *after the slash* I put the appropriate key on your
        keyboard you have to press):
        _meleth_ > malta (18/t) - lambe (27/j) with an acute accent above (-
        /R) - thúle (9/#) with an acute accent above (/R)
        _mîl_ > malta (18/t) - long carrier (-/~) with a dot above (-/B) -
        lambe (27/j)

        You can download the fonts to your computer and try to write these
        words in a Word Editor (using the key of the letters after the slash
        in the parenthesis). I'd like to inform you that there is a very new
        font called *Annatar* from Johan Winge that is really beautiful:
        http://home.student.uu.se/j/jowi4905/fonts/annatar.html

        Good luck with your tattoos!
        Lucy
      • machhezan
        ... At least, it s the most Elvish font, that is, the only one where we re sure it s written by Elves, on the Moria Gate inscription. But you re right, the
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 5, 2004
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          Lucy wrote:
          > The transcription is also correct but you have it
          > transcribed using Beleriand mode (no vowel tehtas) only, what a
          > pity.

          At least, it's the most Elvish font, that is, the only one where
          we're sure it's written by Elves, on the Moria Gate inscription.

          But you're right, the vowel-tehtar mode transcription you're
          suggesting might be more pleasing to most peoples' eyes.

          suilaid
          j. 'mach' wust
        • Matthew
          ... hmmm. I used TengScribe with Sindarin mode. I don t see a Beleriand mode anywhere. I tried your manual transcription, but for some reason the characters
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 5, 2004
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            > here is my little help with the Sindarin part: the translation is
            > correct :o) The transcription is also correct but you have it
            > transcribed using Beleriand mode (no vowel tehtas) only,

            hmmm. I used TengScribe with Sindarin mode. I don't see a Beleriand
            mode anywhere.

            I tried your manual transcription, but for some reason the characters
            didn't come out correctly in Word using Tengwar Elfica. Any other ideas?

            matthew.
          • calwen76
            ... Yeah, there s no difference in TengScribe between *modes* - only between languages (Sindarin and Quenya). Just briefly: the consonants are represented by
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 5, 2004
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <ftezebra@y...> wrote:
              > hmmm. I used TengScribe with Sindarin mode. I don't see a Beleriand
              > mode anywhere.

              Yeah, there's no difference in TengScribe between *modes* - only
              between languages (Sindarin and Quenya). Just briefly: the consonants
              are represented by _tengwar_ that actually present the corpus of the
              word; the signs above _tengwar_ are called _tehtar_ (they can either
              represent vowels or have other functions). Now, there are two ways
              i.e. modes of writing Sindarin in Tengwar:
              a) the triple dots, dots, accute accents, curls above _tengwar_ (i.e.
              consonants) represent vowels - these signs are called _ómatehtar_:
              such mode is called _tehta mode_
              b) vowels are not written with _ómatehtar_ above _tengwar_ but
              also with _tengwar_ > such mode is called _full mode_

              Beleriand mode is the only attested style of 'genuine' writing of
              Sindarin we know (for now, I hope) - as Mach has mentioned. So it is
              obvious that the TengScribe offers but this style. We have a sample
              of Tengwar _tehta mode_ text that was written by Aragorn so it is not
              BMO accurate to consider this text as 'genuine' Elvish. But as far as
              your words include no controversary letters, I think you can use the
              tehta mode with no pain.

              > I tried your manual transcription, but for some reason the
              > characters didn't come out correctly in Word using Tengwar Elfica.
              > Any other ideas?

              Well, I think it is because I have another keyboard or what. In case
              you will to wait for just a little bit I can make a picture of the
              Sindarin words - you know, I have no pic editor here at work... :o)
              Or someone else could give you instant help.

              Lucy
            • Mike
              Might also show gf the range of fonts available, so she has an idea of what there is available for sure. As well as writing styles. Me, I like to try to weave
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 8, 2004
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                Might also show gf the range of fonts available, so she has an idea of what there is available for sure.

                As well as writing styles. Me, I like to try to weave letters in and together, much like you see in Arabic/Islamic calligraphy.

                But that is just me.

                Different colors, unless you like the straight black?

                Mike
              • Matthew
                ... I tried your manual suggestion, and I got this result: http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg As you can see, the transcription as typed in for
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 11, 2004
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                  > You could try this (in the parenthesis there's the number of the
                  > tengwa as it is set in the chart - see Appendix E to the Lord of
                  > the Rings and *after the slash* I put the appropriate key on your
                  > keyboard you have to press):
                  > _meleth_ > malta (18/t) - lambe (27/j) with an acute accent
                  > above (-> /R) - thúle (9/#) with an acute accent above (/R)
                  > _mîl_ > malta (18/t) - long carrier (-/~) with a dot above (-/B) -
                  > lambe (27/j)

                  I tried your manual suggestion, and I got this result:
                  http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg
                  As you can see, the transcription as typed in for "meleth" (tjR#R) and
                  "mîl" (t~Bj). Any ideas as to why this isn't working?

                  matthew.
                • calwen76
                  ... and ... Well, I don t really know where is the problem, I guess different keyboards play their role here. I d suggest you to download Dan Smith s fonts
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 12, 2004
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <ftezebra@y...> wrote:

                    > > _meleth_ > malta (18/t) - lambe (27/j) with an acute accent
                    > > above (-> /R) - thúle (9/#) with an acute accent above (/R)
                    > > _mîl_ > malta (18/t) - long carrier (-/~) with a dot above (-/B) -
                    > > lambe (27/j)
                    >
                    > I tried your manual suggestion, and I got this result:
                    > http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg
                    > As you can see, the transcription as typed in for "meleth" (tjR#R)
                    and
                    > "mîl" (t~Bj). Any ideas as to why this isn't working?
                    >
                    > matthew.

                    Well, I don't really know where is the problem, I guess different
                    keyboards play their role here. I'd suggest you to download Dan
                    Smith's fonts package from here:
                    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/index.htm
                    or here:
                    http://www.geocities.com/fontmaster.geo/index.html

                    I sometimes have problems to get throught these. I'll try to email
                    you just the single Keyboard map - so you can yourself find out the
                    right keys. Such hybrids sometimes occure when I write not noticing
                    that I am using keyboard for e.g. French or Czech - if you have more
                    keyboards available/chosen in your Word Editor, make sure you have
                    switched to English keyboard. This may sound silly when I assume that
                    you are American or British but you never know :o)

                    Lucy
                  • Johan Winge
                    ... I m afraid you have written TjR#R and T~Bj. I guess your word editor changes an initial lower case character to the corresponding upper case, so you will
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 12, 2004
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                      On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:32:33 -0000, Matthew <ftezebra@...> wrote:

                      >> You could try this (in the parenthesis there's the number of the
                      >> tengwa as it is set in the chart - see Appendix E to the Lord of
                      >> the Rings and *after the slash* I put the appropriate key on your
                      >> keyboard you have to press):
                      >> _meleth_ > malta (18/t) - lambe (27/j) with an acute accent
                      >> above (-> /R) - thúle (9/#) with an acute accent above (/R)
                      >> _mîl_ > malta (18/t) - long carrier (-/~) with a dot above (-/B) -
                      >> lambe (27/j)
                      >
                      > I tried your manual suggestion, and I got this result:
                      > http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg
                      > As you can see, the transcription as typed in for "meleth" (tjR#R) and
                      > "mîl" (t~Bj). Any ideas as to why this isn't working?

                      I'm afraid you have written TjR#R and T~Bj. I guess your word editor
                      changes an initial lower case character to the corresponding upper case,
                      so you will have to figure out how to shut this "feature" off.

                      There is also another problem: thuule is written by pressing "3" on the
                      keyboard, not "#". So tjR3R is what you want. If you want to use Tengwar
                      Annatar I propose tj$3R instead - the difference is how the acute accent
                      is placed above lambe.

                      Regards,
                      Johan Winge
                    • calwen76
                      ... editor changes an initial lower case character to the corresponding upper case, so you will have to figure out how to shut this feature off. I think you
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 12, 2004
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                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Johan Winge <johan.winge@t...>
                        wrote:
                        > I'm afraid you have written TjR#R and T~Bj. I guess your word
                        editor changes an initial lower case character to the corresponding
                        upper case, so you will have to figure out how to shut this "feature"
                        off.

                        I think you can turn off the function "Capitals in the beginning of
                        the line/row" in Tools/Autoratch (or I don't know what's the correct
                        name of that function)

                        > There is also another problem: thuule is written by pressing "3" on
                        the keyboard, not "#". So tjR3R is what you want. If you want to use
                        Tengwar Annatar I propose tj$3R instead - the difference is how the
                        acute accent is placed above lambe.

                        Yes, that's the problem with different keyboards. I have Czech
                        characters on the numerals so I just guessed what is the correct key.
                        This is interesting - I have to press SHIFT + numerals to get the
                        tehtar. :o)

                        Sorry for the confusion.

                        Lucy
                      • Matthew
                        UGH. Farking MS Word. Figures... I corrected my manual transcription to this: http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg Looks much better, I think. Do
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 12, 2004
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                          UGH. Farking MS Word. Figures...

                          I corrected my manual transcription to this:
                          http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg
                          Looks much better, I think.

                          Do my Quenya transcriptions have the same problem? Are they done in
                          Beleriand mode with whatever missing?

                          thanks. :-)
                          matthew.
                        • calwen76
                          ... Yes, this looks all right to me. ... There s actually only one way of writting Quenya, as far as I know - the tehta mode. Looking at your picture, I think
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 12, 2004
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                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <ftezebra@y...> wrote:
                            > I corrected my manual transcription to this:
                            > http://heterophobic.org/journal/img/melethmil.jpg
                            > Looks much better, I think.

                            Yes, this looks all right to me.

                            > Do my Quenya transcriptions have the same problem? Are they done in
                            > Beleriand mode with whatever missing?

                            There's actually only one way of writting Quenya, as far as I know -
                            the tehta mode. Looking at your picture, I think all words are
                            transcribed correctly, the only think I'd correct is moving the
                            accute accents (E-tehta) in the _Tegwar cursive font_ words so they
                            are right above the middle of the tengwar.

                            Lucy
                          • machhezan
                            ... Most of the Quenya tengwar texts are written in the classical Quenya mode, but some are written according to the general use or Westron mode, see e.g.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 13, 2004
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                              Lucy wrote:
                              > There's actually only one way of writting Quenya, as far as I know -
                              > the tehta mode.

                              Most of the Quenya tengwar texts are written in the 'classical' Quenya
                              mode, but some are written according to the 'general use' or Westron
                              mode, see e.g. on Måns Björkman's site:

                              http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/teng_modes.htm

                              The 'classical' mode is preferrable, since it's specially adapted to
                              Quenya.


                              suilaid
                              j. 'mach' wust
                              http://machhezan.tripod.com
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