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Re: [elfscript] Tengwar Unicode comments

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  • John Cowan
    ... Sounds like a glyph-level distinction. Are there any cases where the difference actually *makes* a difference to plaintext interpretation? That is the
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 19 1:58 PM
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      Mans Bjorkman wrote:

      > 6. Missing characters:
      >
      > * The numeric _12_ had a variant form resembling a lower-case _9_, i.e.
      > with a diagonal line descending from the bow of the circle (ibidem).

      Sounds like a glyph-level distinction. Are there any cases where the
      difference actually *makes* a difference to plaintext interpretation?
      That is the general criterion for creating a new Unicode character.

      > * The quotation marks and the _&_ sign used in "Edwin Lowdham's
      > manuscript" may perhaps be excluded because they occur in other writing
      > systems as well; but then the double dots, the acute accent and the
      > breve should be excluded on the same grounds.

      Indeed, I believe that all of these should be unified away in Unicode,
      and represented as font differences, just as the Latin round period
      is unified with the Armenian square period as U+002E.

      > * Tolkien 1965a mentions a variant form of the a-tehta "like a
      > circumflex".

      Again, a font difference only (representing a difference in handwriting).
      Unicode is not supposed to support all possible palaeographic variants.

      > * In the first copy of "The King's Letter", a special variant of xx30
      > TENGWAR LETTER STEMLESS ANNA is used in word-final position.

      More details?

      --

      Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
      Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
      Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
      Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... That s the problem... we really don t know. It may have been used in special contexts, it may have been a distinct grapheme, but we have exactly one sample
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 20 3:12 PM
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        John Cowan wrote:
        >
        > Mans Bjorkman wrote:
        >
        > > 6. Missing characters:
        > >
        > > * The numeric _12_ had a variant form resembling a lower-case _9_, i.e.
        > > with a diagonal line descending from the bow of the circle (ibidem).
        >
        > Sounds like a glyph-level distinction. Are there any cases where the
        > difference actually *makes* a difference to plaintext interpretation?
        > That is the general criterion for creating a new Unicode character.

        That's the problem... we really don't know. It may have been used in
        special contexts, it may have been a distinct grapheme, but we have
        exactly one sample of it, and we're not told how it was used.


        > > * The quotation marks and the _&_ sign used in "Edwin Lowdham's
        > > manuscript" may perhaps be excluded because they occur in other writing
        > > systems as well; but then the double dots, the acute accent and the
        > > breve should be excluded on the same grounds.
        >
        > Indeed, I believe that all of these should be unified away in Unicode,
        > and represented as font differences, just as the Latin round period
        > is unified with the Armenian square period as U+002E.

        Which had me thinking: is the Anglo-Saxon _&_ sign codified already?


        > > * Tolkien 1965a mentions a variant form of the a-tehta "like a
        > > circumflex".
        >
        > Again, a font difference only (representing a difference in handwriting).
        > Unicode is not supposed to support all possible palaeographic variants.

        Fair enough.


        > > * In the first copy of "The King's Letter", a special variant of xx30
        > > TENGWAR LETTER STEMLESS ANNA is used in word-final position.
        >
        > More details?

        Well, the only difference is that a short "hook", similar to a comma, is
        attached to the lower end of the bow.


        Yrs,
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "'Min drotzete signe then helge and!
        Törnby Nw hauer iak Swerighe i mynne hand.'
        SE-179 75 Skå Tha swarade en riddere, het herra Knut:
        Sweden 'Jak tror, tik brister alt annat wt'."
      • Mans Bjorkman
        ... Okay, Michael. :) ... CJRT s Tengwar inscriptions contain many oddities that his father never used ( stemless anna for /s/, vowels being placed freely
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 28 12:53 PM
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          Michael Everson wrote:
          >
          > (Call me Michael.) I am only too delighted to be corrected.

          Okay, Michael. :)


          > >4. The title page Tengwar inscriptions in _The Silmarillion_ and _The
          > >Lost Road_ were not written by Tolkien, and should thus not be treated
          > >as reliable sources. From this follows that xx34 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED
          > >PARMA and xx35 TENGWAR LETTER REVERSED FORMEN should be removed (xx4B
          > >TENGWAR SIGN RIGHT CURL BELOW is attested in "Edwin Lowdham's
          > >manuscript").
          >
          > Arden Smith pointed out the Christopher Tolkien MSS. I don't know, what is
          > consensus? Obviously we don't want to encode just any tengwa any body
          > invented, but what about these?

          CJRT's Tengwar inscriptions contain many oddities that his father never
          used ("stemless anna" for /s/, vowels being placed freely below the
          letters, etc.). Either Christopher hasn't studied his father's English
          tengwar inscriptions in great detail, or he has chosen to ignore them
          and made up his own conventions. If these mirrored tengwar of his are to
          be considered at all (and I beleive they shouldn't), it ought to be as
          allographs of the letters they most resemble, since they carry the same
          sound value.

          Of course, I don't know if there is any "consensus" in this area, but I
          hope so. :)

          Måns


          --
          Måns Björkman "'Min drotzete signe then helge and!
          Törnby Nw hauer iak Swerighe i mynne hand.'
          SE-179 75 Skå Tha swarade en riddere, het herra Knut:
          Sweden 'Jak tror, tik brister alt annat wt'."
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