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Re: [elfscript] Is this book canon?

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  • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
    ... http://half. ... No, that book is _not_ canon; it deserves to be shot from a cannon. That book is probably the worst disservice ever to those interested in
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 25, 2003
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      Teithant Ed Kemo:
      >The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth
      http://half.
      >ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=151418&meta_id=1

      No, that book is _not_ canon; it deserves to be shot from a cannon. That
      book is probably the worst disservice ever to those interested in
      Tolkienian linguistics. In its own way, it's worse than the Grey
      Company's 'Elvish' mishmash; at least the Grey Company admit that their
      Grelvish is not Tolkien's creation. Ruth Noel, on the other hand,
      presents her work as being what Tolkien intended. It's difficult to open
      to a page in her book without finding errors (pl.) that should be
      obviously wrong to someone who has actually done very basic research on
      Tolkien's languages. Avoid "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth"
      like the plague!

      Cuio mae, Danny.
    • Ed Kemo
      Dan: Thanks for your nice reply. Is it true that Tolkien based the elvish language on the Finnish language. I believe there was a show about this on the
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 26, 2003
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        Dan:
        Thanks for your nice reply.
        Is it true that Tolkien based the elvish language on the Finnish language.
        I believe there was a show about this on the Biography channel that pointed out if it were not for Tolkien the Finnish language would have become extinct.

        Is there any truth to this?
        Thanks in advance
        Ed

        To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived.
        This is to have succeeded.
        - Ralph Waldo Emerson
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: d_daniel_andries@...
        To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 5:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [elfscript] Is this book canon?


        Teithant Ed Kemo:
        >The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth
        http://half.
        >ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=151418&meta_id=1

        No, that book is _not_ canon; it deserves to be shot from a cannon. That
        book is probably the worst disservice ever to those interested in
        Tolkienian linguistics. In its own way, it's worse than the Grey
        Company's 'Elvish' mishmash; at least the Grey Company admit that their
        Grelvish is not Tolkien's creation. Ruth Noel, on the other hand,
        presents her work as being what Tolkien intended. It's difficult to open
        to a page in her book without finding errors (pl.) that should be
        obviously wrong to someone who has actually done very basic research on
        Tolkien's languages. Avoid "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth"
        like the plague!

        Cuio mae, Danny.



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      • John Cowan
        ... Quenya, the mostly extinct language of the High Elves, has a certain Finnish flavor to it, but has nothing directly to do with the Finnish language. ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 26, 2003
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          Ed Kemo scripsit:

          > Is it true that Tolkien based the elvish language on the Finnish language.

          Quenya, the mostly extinct language of the High Elves, has a certain
          Finnish flavor to it, but has nothing directly to do with the Finnish
          language.

          > I believe there was a show about this on the Biography channel that
          > pointed out if it were not for Tolkien the Finnish language would have
          > become extinct.

          Hardly. Finnish is one of the two national and official languages of
          Finland, and is spoken by about six million people. Its survival
          is not in question.

          --
          John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan <jcowan@...>
          You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
          You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
          Clear all so! `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
        • Antoine Khater
          Hello all MERRY Christmas, for those who celebrates Christamas I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and I d like to have the
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 27, 2003
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            Hello all MERRY Christmas, for those who celebrates Christamas



            I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and I'd
            like to have the folowing printed in Elvish on our wedding ring (in sindarin
            mode), but unable to translate it



            "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb. The more you invest in love you more
            you get from it"



            I only know that love is meleth in sindarin, I use dragon flame 2.0 and
            that's pretty much all I was able to do so far so your help would be greatly
            apreciated it



            Thanks to all



            Regards,







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Antoine Khater
            Hello all MERRY Christmas, for those who celebrates Christamas I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and I d like to have the
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 28, 2003
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              Hello all MERRY Christmas, for those who celebrates Christamas



              I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and I'd
              like to have the folowing printed in Elvish on our wedding ring (in sindarin
              mode), but unable to translate it



              "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb. The more you invest in love you more
              you get from it"



              I only know that love is meleth in sindarin, I use dragon flame 2.0 and
              that's pretty much all I was able to do so far so your help would be greatly
              apreciated it



              Thanks to all



              Regards,







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Helge K. Fauskanger
              ... I d ... sindarin ... more you get from it There is no way to translate this into really Tolkienian Sindarin (in published material at least, most of the
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 28, 2003
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                Antoine Khater wrote:

                > I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and
                I'd
                > like to have the folowing printed in Elvish on our wedding ring (in
                sindarin
                > mode), but unable to translate it
                >
                > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb. The more you invest in love you
                more you get from it"

                There is no way to translate this into really Tolkienian Sindarin (in
                published material at least, most of the words are missing -- something
                could probably be theorized/extrapolated, but I guess you wouldn't want
                something that hypothetical on your wedding ring). May I suggest that you
                go for a Tengwar transcription of the English text?

                - HKF
              • Pelvellso Bad Boy
                I have a tattoo with the scribe of the one ring in dead tongue ... and I would like to know if anybody had the all verse in the black tongue of mordor.. i need
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 28, 2003
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                  I have a tattoo with the scribe of the one ring in dead tongue ... and I would like to know if anybody had the all verse in the black tongue of mordor..


                  i need this sentence on black tongue:

                  " Gakh Nazgi Ilid Albai Golug-durub-uuri lata-nuut.
                  Udu takob-ishiz gund-ob Gazat-shakh-uuri.
                  Krith Shara-uuri matuurz matat duumpuga.
                  Ash tug Shakhbuurz-uur Uliima-tab-ishi za,
                  Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.


                  Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.


                  Any one knows????




                  " Gakh Nazgi Ilid Albai Golug-durub-uuri lata-nuut.
                  Udu takob-ishiz gund-ob Gazat-shakh-uuri.
                  Krith Shara-uuri matuurz matat duumpuga.
                  Ash tug Shakhbuurz-uur Uliima-tab-ishi za,
                  Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.
                  Ash nazg durbatuluk, Ash nazg gimbatul,
                  Ash nazg thrakatuluk, Ugh burzum-ishi krimpatul,
                  Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.

                  .... until the end.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Helge K. Fauskanger
                  To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 9:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [elfscript] Translation Help


                  Antoine Khater wrote:

                  > I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and
                  I'd
                  > like to have the folowing printed in Elvish on our wedding ring (in
                  sindarin
                  > mode), but unable to translate it
                  >
                  > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb. The more you invest in love you
                  more you get from it"

                  There is no way to translate this into really Tolkienian Sindarin (in
                  published material at least, most of the words are missing -- something
                  could probably be theorized/extrapolated, but I guess you wouldn't want
                  something that hypothetical on your wedding ring). May I suggest that you
                  go for a Tengwar transcription of the English text?

                  - HKF


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                • Antoine Khater
                  Thanks for you reply, Is there anyway of translating at least the first part? Love is not a feeling, it s a verb The words seems quite common to me right?
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                    Thanks for you reply,



                    Is there anyway of translating at least the first part?

                    "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb"

                    The words seems quite common to me right?



                    Thanks for your help



                    _____

                    From: Helge K. Fauskanger [mailto:helge.fauskanger@...]
                    Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:22 AM
                    To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [elfscript] Translation Help



                    Antoine Khater wrote:

                    > I am coming over to you asking for help, I am about to get married and
                    I'd
                    > like to have the folowing printed in Elvish on our wedding ring (in
                    sindarin
                    > mode), but unable to translate it
                    >
                    > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb. The more you invest in love you
                    more you get from it"

                    There is no way to translate this into really Tolkienian Sindarin (in
                    published material at least, most of the words are missing -- something
                    could probably be theorized/extrapolated, but I guess you wouldn't want
                    something that hypothetical on your wedding ring). May I suggest that you
                    go for a Tengwar transcription of the English text?

                    - HKF


                    To Post a message, send it to: elfscript@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: elfscript-unsubscribe@...



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                  • Calwen Rudh
                    ... Commonness (unfortunately) means nothing in the terms of Sindarin. We e.g. know almost nothing about the most common verb to be ! :o) If I am not mistaken
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Antoine Khater" <tony@m...> wrote:
                      > Is there anyway of translating at least the first part?
                      >
                      > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb"
                      >
                      > The words seems quite common to me right?

                      Commonness (unfortunately) means nothing in the terms of Sindarin. We
                      e.g. know almost nothing about the most common verb "to be"! :o) If I
                      am not mistaken we don't have any word either for "feel, feeling,
                      sense, attitude" or something like this or for "verb". :o(

                      I would recommend to transcribe the English version into Tengwar too
                      since it is the safest way.

                      Sorry I couldn't quite help you.
                      Lucy
                    • Antoine Khater
                      Thanks again for your help if I want to transcribe the english version as you suggested would this be close enough? Love is not a feeling, it’s a verb jr^`V
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                        Thanks again for your help if I want to transcribe the english version as
                        you suggested would this be close enough?



                        Love is not a feeling, it’s a verb

                        jr^`V iT 51Y `C e~Vjb%= 1T²+ `C r6Rw-=



                        The more you invest in love the more you get from it

                        @ t6YO h`N`M 5%riR1 5% jr^`V @ t6YO h`N`M x1R e7t^ 1T-=





                        Thanks

                        _____

                        From: Calwen Rudh [mailto:calwen.rudh@...]
                        Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 11:25 AM
                        To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [elfscript] Re: Translation Help



                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Antoine Khater" <tony@m...> wrote:
                        > Is there anyway of translating at least the first part?
                        >
                        > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb"
                        >
                        > The words seems quite common to me right?

                        Commonness (unfortunately) means nothing in the terms of Sindarin. We
                        e.g. know almost nothing about the most common verb "to be"! :o) If I
                        am not mistaken we don't have any word either for "feel, feeling,
                        sense, attitude" or something like this or for "verb". :o(

                        I would recommend to transcribe the English version into Tengwar too
                        since it is the safest way.

                        Sorry I couldn't quite help you.
                        Lucy



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                      • Calwen Rudh
                        ... Quite right, I would correct only the silent E in love - you have an E-tehta over a short carrier, these Es are rather transcribed as an underdot:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Antoine Khater" <tony@m...> wrote:
                          > Love is not a feeling, it's a verb
                          > jr^`V iT 51Y `C e~Vjb%= 1T²+ `C r6Rw-=

                          Quite right, I would correct only the silent E in "love" - you have
                          an E-tehta over a short carrier, these "Es" are rather transcribed as
                          an underdot: jrYO.
                          Further I would recommend to have "it is" instead of "it's".

                          > The more you invest in love the more you get from it
                          > @ t6YO h`N`M 5%riR1 5% jr^`V @ t6YO h`N`M x1R e7t^ 1T-=

                          "you" could be transcribed several ways if I am not wrong:
                          hyH
                          l~M
                          h~M
                          l.H

                          So it is your choice. "Love" needs an underdot instead of the E-tehta
                          over a short carrier (as in the first sentense).

                          Otherwise I'd say it is okay :o) But I have started to learn Tengwar
                          for English just few weeks ago so I am not such an expert - I'd wait
                          for the double check from someone more advanced.

                          So good luck with the rings and your wedding!

                          Lucy
                        • mach
                          ... Only the first one is correct within Antoine Khater s little tengwar text. The second and the fourth use yanta and úre which aren t used in English tehtar
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                            Lucy's proposed the following transcriptions for the word _you_:
                            > hyH
                            > l~M
                            > h~M
                            > l.H

                            Only the first one is correct within Antoine Khater's little tengwar text.
                            The second and the fourth use yanta and úre which aren't used in English
                            tehtar modes unless the vowel tehtar are placed on the preceding sign (which
                            is unusual); the second and the third are phonetic (phonemic), but Antoine
                            Kather's text is orthographic.

                            There's little details that should and another that could be changed (but
                            all in all it's a very good transcription!):

                            I wouldn't write _it's_ with the silme-hook, but with a normal silme letter,
                            since in DTS 18, there's an example of _there's_ where the silme-hook isn't
                            used either.

                            The _ee_ in _feeling_ might be written with two acutes instead of one acute
                            on a long carrier. Unfortunately, we don't have but two examples of doubled
                            vowels: One instance of the word _too_ with a doubled o-tehta placed on the
                            t-letter so that the normal tehtar-tengwar order is broken (DTS 10); one
                            instance of the word _seen_ with two acutes on two short carriers (DTS 5), a
                            writing I wouldn't recommend because app. E says that short carriers aren't
                            used except where they have to.

                            I'd recommend to write _feeling_ like that: ej$Fb% , based on the example of
                            _too_. However, my personal tengwar-taste goes rather with your spelling,
                            Antoine.

                            suilaid
                            ---------------------------
                            j. 'mach' wust
                            http://machhezan.tripod.com
                            ---------------------------
                          • Antoine Khater
                            Here are some questions Love is not a feeling, it is a verb. jr^`V iT 51Y `C e~Vjb%= 1T²+ `C r6Rw-= Love should be jr^`V or jrYO. Feeling should be e~Vjb% or
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 29, 2003
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                              Here are some questions



                              Love is not a feeling, it is a verb.



                              jr^`V iT 51Y `C e~Vjb%= 1T²+ `C r6Rw-=



                              Love should be jr^`V or jrYO.

                              Feeling should be e~Vjb% or ej$Fb%



                              which one is better ? Should remove the ponctuations (I dunno if there are
                              any ponctuations in elvish)



                              The more you invest in a marriage, the more valuable it becomes.

                              You should be h`N`M or hyH

                              1) @ t6YO h`N`M 5%riR1 5% `C t7'E`Bx#`V= @ t6YO rjE`Mw#j`V 1T wzRt^iR-=





                              Suilad.















                              _____

                              From: Calwen Rudh [mailto:calwen.rudh@...]
                              Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 3:18 PM
                              To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [elfscript] Re: Translation Help



                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Antoine Khater" <tony@m...> wrote:
                              > Love is not a feeling, it's a verb
                              > jr^`V iT 51Y `C e~Vjb%= 1T²+ `C r6Rw-=

                              Quite right, I would correct only the silent E in "love" - you have
                              an E-tehta over a short carrier, these "Es" are rather transcribed as
                              an underdot: jrYO.
                              Further I would recommend to have "it is" instead of "it's".

                              > The more you invest in love the more you get from it
                              > @ t6YO h`N`M 5%riR1 5% jr^`V @ t6YO h`N`M x1R e7t^ 1T-=

                              "you" could be transcribed several ways if I am not wrong:
                              hyH
                              l~M
                              h~M
                              l.H

                              So it is your choice. "Love" needs an underdot instead of the E-tehta
                              over a short carrier (as in the first sentense).

                              Otherwise I'd say it is okay :o) But I have started to learn Tengwar
                              for English just few weeks ago so I am not such an expert - I'd wait
                              for the double check from someone more advanced.

                              So good luck with the rings and your wedding!

                              Lucy





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                            • mach
                              ... Tolkien transcribes all instances of final silent _e_ like the second, so the first isn t correct. ... I think we can t decide which is to be preferred
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 30, 2003
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                                Antoine Khater wrote:
                                > Love should be jr^`V or jrYO.

                                Tolkien transcribes all instances of final silent _e_ like the second, so
                                the first isn't correct.

                                > Feeling should be e~Vjb% or ej$Fb%

                                I think we can't decide which is to be preferred since there are only two
                                instances of doubled vowels transcribed into a tehtar mode, but they're not
                                the same way. However, neither has a long carrier, so you may choose ej$Fb%

                                > You should be h`N`M or hyH

                                The second is the transcription Tolkien's used (the word _you_ is attested
                                in the Brogan Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10).

                                suilaid

                                ---------------------------
                                j. 'mach' wust
                                http://machhezan.tripod.com
                                ---------------------------
                              • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                ... I can t think of a good _Sindarin_ translation not involving wild extrapolation. In Quenya, only the word verb would be missing. If _carquetta_, which
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 31, 2003
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                                  > Is there anyway of translating at least the first part?
                                  > "Love is not a feeling, it's a verb"
                                  > The words seems quite common to me right?

                                  I can't think of a good _Sindarin_ translation not involving wild
                                  extrapolation. In Quenya, only the word "verb" would be missing. If
                                  _carquetta_, which could mean something like "action-word", is good enough
                                  for you, then you may try:

                                  _Melme ume felme, nas carquetta_

                                  Not really true in grammatical terms, though -- for in Quenya, _melme_
                                  "love" IS a noun not a verb! The verb "love" is _mel-_! :)

                                  I guess the next question, more on-topic, is how to write this in Tengwar?

                                  - HKF
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