Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: question on ned 'wilith

Expand Messages
  • Benct Philip Jonsson
    ... Why not Unque? Cf. (or /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      At 20:12 3.12.2003, elfscript@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:59:49 -0600 (CST)
      > From: d_daniel_andries@...
      >Subject: Re: question on ned 'wilith

      >My belief is that the gasdil would
      >be written with anca in the mode of Beleriand, so _'wilith_ should be
      >spelt: anca + following 'w' tehta

      Why not Unque? Cf. <http://www.melroch.se/tengwar/omasind/omasind.pdf>
      (or <http://www.melroch.se/tengwar/omasind/omasind.png>

      /BP 8^)
      B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
      __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
      "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
    • mach
      ... That s a good point. And you re also right that the elves would rather tend to show etymology in their spelling, so that the notes in app. E would refer to
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 6, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Danny wrote:
        > if it were written as 'gh', we would tend to pronounce it as
        > 'gh'. The Romanised spelling sometimes reflects pronunciation rather
        > than orthography.

        That's a good point.

        And you're also right that the elves would rather tend to show etymology in
        their spelling, so that the notes in app. E would refer to elvish use. So
        the attested, rather phonetic samples would be mannish. Men: phonetic ­
        Elves: etymologic.

        Therefore, in a mannish Sindarin mode (like the King's Letter mode) the
        gasdil is likely not to be represented (and I'm not trying to do more than a
        man can do).

        Danny wrote that in _ennyn durin aran moria_:

        > _Durin_ and _Moria_ are not mutated.

        Thanks for correcting me, I didn't know that.

        > I've never supposed there to be a Sindarin mode that represented
        > labiovelars as separate tengwar. This is based on Tolkien's words
        > concerning cirth #23 - 28: '...were actually most probably inventions of
        > the Noldor of Eregion, since they were used for the representationof
        > sounds not found in Sindarin.' (App. E) Well, certainly 'gw', 'chw' and
        > 'ngw' existed in Sindarin, but the quote suggests to my mind that the
        > Sindar didn't consider them to be units separate from the simple velars,
        > not enough to warrant their own signs, anyway.

        Excellent argument!

        > If Sindarin labiovelars
        > weren't represented by a separate series in the Cirth, why would it be
        > different in the Tengwar?

        Well, maybe just because the tengwar provided letters for these sounds?

        As I asked Danny for a reason why he opined "that the mode of Beleriand
        wasn't really appropiate for a quote of Galadriel", he answered:

        > Nothing especially profound. I am of the opinion that the mode of
        > Beleriand was invented and used by the Noldor of Beleriand, or in areas
        > where the High Elves exerted a considerable influence (e.g. Eregion and
        > Imladris). This influence would likely not greatly affect the Silvan
        > Elves of Lothlórien, though Galadriel was half-Noldorin.

        I'd also say that it were Noldorin loremasters who invented the mode of
        Beleriand. But more than this, I'd think that they invented all Eldarin
        modes (while the King's Letter modes are, I'd think, rather mannish).

        Which Sindar would develop a tengwar mode? The Sindar of Doriath? I don't
        think that they'd adopt the script invented by Feanor. Indeed, Daeron is
        said to have rearranged the cirth, which seems to be a conservative reaction
        against the growing influence of the tengwar, kind of orthography politics.
        The Sindar of the Falas? The Sindar of Gondolin? I have no idea. But I'm
        quite sure: If the Silvan Elves would use another mode than the one used in
        Eregion and Imladrist, then that other mode wouldn't be their own invention,
        but taken from other Sindar. I just don't think that the wood elves would
        care about writing.

      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.