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Re: question on ned 'wilith

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  • Calwen Rudh
    ... as long as ... _w_ sign, ... following ... then why ... It is not explicitly said that gasdil has to be a sign in Tengwar as far as I understand what is
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 2003
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, mach <machhezan@g...> wrote:
      > My belief is that it's safer not to transcribe the gasdil at all
      as long as
      > we don't know what the gasdil is. So I'd suggest to use the simple
      _w_ sign,
      > vilya or vala, depending on the mode. I wouldn't use the sign for
      > _w_ but within a word.
      > If the gasdil were represented by the _gh_ sign (anca or unque),
      then why
      > wouldn't Tolkien write _gh_ instead of _'_? ...

      It is not explicitly said that gasdil has to be a sign in Tengwar as
      far as I understand what is written in Etymologies in the entry
      Gorgoroth. I think that _gasdil_ is a Sindarin word for
      English "apostrophe", Czech "apostrof", French "apostrophe" etc. As
      Moradan first explained in the Elfscript message #26370:

      > Don't forget that 'g' is lenited to 'gh' and then transformed in an
      > apostrophe by simple assimilation of the consonant. 'gh' is a
      > sound non existing in English that can be found in Arabian and is
      > like a very soft 'g' without the plosive efect of English 'g'.
      > This sound is so weak that disapears.

      > Besides, we have proof that 'd' lenites to 'dh' and in tengwar it
      > results in the rising of the stem of the symol. 'b' gets lenited
      > to 'v' and this also happens by the lifting of the stem. Therefore
      > if you follow these two patterns you can conclude that the symbol
      > for lenited 'g', though not pronounced, should still be the 'g'
      > with the stem lifted.

      And I agree.

    • Benct Philip Jonsson
      ... Why not Unque? Cf. (or /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 3, 2003
        At 20:12 3.12.2003, elfscript@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:59:49 -0600 (CST)
        > From: d_daniel_andries@...
        >Subject: Re: question on ned 'wilith

        >My belief is that the gasdil would
        >be written with anca in the mode of Beleriand, so _'wilith_ should be
        >spelt: anca + following 'w' tehta

        Why not Unque? Cf. <http://www.melroch.se/tengwar/omasind/omasind.pdf>
        (or <http://www.melroch.se/tengwar/omasind/omasind.png>

        /BP 8^)
        B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
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      • mach
        ... That s a good point. And you re also right that the elves would rather tend to show etymology in their spelling, so that the notes in app. E would refer to
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 6, 2003
          Danny wrote:
          > if it were written as 'gh', we would tend to pronounce it as
          > 'gh'. The Romanised spelling sometimes reflects pronunciation rather
          > than orthography.

          That's a good point.

          And you're also right that the elves would rather tend to show etymology in
          their spelling, so that the notes in app. E would refer to elvish use. So
          the attested, rather phonetic samples would be mannish. Men: phonetic ­
          Elves: etymologic.

          Therefore, in a mannish Sindarin mode (like the King's Letter mode) the
          gasdil is likely not to be represented (and I'm not trying to do more than a
          man can do).

          Danny wrote that in _ennyn durin aran moria_:

          > _Durin_ and _Moria_ are not mutated.

          Thanks for correcting me, I didn't know that.

          > I've never supposed there to be a Sindarin mode that represented
          > labiovelars as separate tengwar. This is based on Tolkien's words
          > concerning cirth #23 - 28: '...were actually most probably inventions of
          > the Noldor of Eregion, since they were used for the representationof
          > sounds not found in Sindarin.' (App. E) Well, certainly 'gw', 'chw' and
          > 'ngw' existed in Sindarin, but the quote suggests to my mind that the
          > Sindar didn't consider them to be units separate from the simple velars,
          > not enough to warrant their own signs, anyway.

          Excellent argument!

          > If Sindarin labiovelars
          > weren't represented by a separate series in the Cirth, why would it be
          > different in the Tengwar?

          Well, maybe just because the tengwar provided letters for these sounds?

          As I asked Danny for a reason why he opined "that the mode of Beleriand
          wasn't really appropiate for a quote of Galadriel", he answered:

          > Nothing especially profound. I am of the opinion that the mode of
          > Beleriand was invented and used by the Noldor of Beleriand, or in areas
          > where the High Elves exerted a considerable influence (e.g. Eregion and
          > Imladris). This influence would likely not greatly affect the Silvan
          > Elves of Lothlórien, though Galadriel was half-Noldorin.

          I'd also say that it were Noldorin loremasters who invented the mode of
          Beleriand. But more than this, I'd think that they invented all Eldarin
          modes (while the King's Letter modes are, I'd think, rather mannish).

          Which Sindar would develop a tengwar mode? The Sindar of Doriath? I don't
          think that they'd adopt the script invented by Feanor. Indeed, Daeron is
          said to have rearranged the cirth, which seems to be a conservative reaction
          against the growing influence of the tengwar, kind of orthography politics.
          The Sindar of the Falas? The Sindar of Gondolin? I have no idea. But I'm
          quite sure: If the Silvan Elves would use another mode than the one used in
          Eregion and Imladrist, then that other mode wouldn't be their own invention,
          but taken from other Sindar. I just don't think that the wood elves would
          care about writing.

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