Re: question on ned 'wilith
- --- In email@example.com, mach <machhezan@g...> wrote:
> My belief is that it's safer not to transcribe the gasdil at allas long as
> we don't know what the gasdil is. So I'd suggest to use the simple_w_ sign,
> vilya or vala, depending on the mode. I wouldn't use the sign forfollowing
> _w_ but within a word.then why
> If the gasdil were represented by the _gh_ sign (anca or unque),
> wouldn't Tolkien write _gh_ instead of _'_? ...It is not explicitly said that gasdil has to be a sign in Tengwar as
far as I understand what is written in Etymologies in the entry
Gorgoroth. I think that _gasdil_ is a Sindarin word for
English "apostrophe", Czech "apostrof", French "apostrophe" etc. As
Moradan first explained in the Elfscript message #26370:
> Don't forget that 'g' is lenited to 'gh' and then transformed in anAnd I agree.
> apostrophe by simple assimilation of the consonant. 'gh' is a
> sound non existing in English that can be found in Arabian and is
> like a very soft 'g' without the plosive efect of English 'g'.
> This sound is so weak that disapears.
> Besides, we have proof that 'd' lenites to 'dh' and in tengwar it
> results in the rising of the stem of the symol. 'b' gets lenited
> to 'v' and this also happens by the lifting of the stem. Therefore
> if you follow these two patterns you can conclude that the symbol
> for lenited 'g', though not pronounced, should still be the 'g'
> with the stem lifted.
- At 20:12 3.12.2003, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:59:49 -0600 (CST)Why not Unque? Cf. <http://www.melroch.se/tengwar/omasind/omasind.pdf>
> From: d_daniel_andries@...
>Subject: Re: question on ned 'wilith
>My belief is that the gasdil would
>be written with anca in the mode of Beleriand, so _'wilith_ should be
>spelt: anca + following 'w' tehta
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
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"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
- Danny wrote:
> if it were written as 'gh', we would tend to pronounce it asThat's a good point.
> 'gh'. The Romanised spelling sometimes reflects pronunciation rather
> than orthography.
And you're also right that the elves would rather tend to show etymology in
their spelling, so that the notes in app. E would refer to elvish use. So
the attested, rather phonetic samples would be mannish. Men: phonetic
Therefore, in a mannish Sindarin mode (like the King's Letter mode) the
gasdil is likely not to be represented (and I'm not trying to do more than a
man can do).
Danny wrote that in _ennyn durin aran moria_:
> _Durin_ and _Moria_ are not mutated.Thanks for correcting me, I didn't know that.
> I've never supposed there to be a Sindarin mode that representedExcellent argument!
> labiovelars as separate tengwar. This is based on Tolkien's words
> concerning cirth #23 - 28: '...were actually most probably inventions of
> the Noldor of Eregion, since they were used for the representationof
> sounds not found in Sindarin.' (App. E) Well, certainly 'gw', 'chw' and
> 'ngw' existed in Sindarin, but the quote suggests to my mind that the
> Sindar didn't consider them to be units separate from the simple velars,
> not enough to warrant their own signs, anyway.
> If Sindarin labiovelarsWell, maybe just because the tengwar provided letters for these sounds?
> weren't represented by a separate series in the Cirth, why would it be
> different in the Tengwar?
As I asked Danny for a reason why he opined "that the mode of Beleriand
wasn't really appropiate for a quote of Galadriel", he answered:
> Nothing especially profound. I am of the opinion that the mode ofI'd also say that it were Noldorin loremasters who invented the mode of
> Beleriand was invented and used by the Noldor of Beleriand, or in areas
> where the High Elves exerted a considerable influence (e.g. Eregion and
> Imladris). This influence would likely not greatly affect the Silvan
> Elves of Lothlórien, though Galadriel was half-Noldorin.
Beleriand. But more than this, I'd think that they invented all Eldarin
modes (while the King's Letter modes are, I'd think, rather mannish).
Which Sindar would develop a tengwar mode? The Sindar of Doriath? I don't
think that they'd adopt the script invented by Feanor. Indeed, Daeron is
said to have rearranged the cirth, which seems to be a conservative reaction
against the growing influence of the tengwar, kind of orthography politics.
The Sindar of the Falas? The Sindar of Gondolin? I have no idea. But I'm
quite sure: If the Silvan Elves would use another mode than the one used in
Eregion and Imladrist, then that other mode wouldn't be their own invention,
but taken from other Sindar. I just don't think that the wood elves would
care about writing.