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Re: [elfscript] Re: help needed.. please? :)

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... I still disagree. _deri_ stop, halt , certainly has none of the desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). After
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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      On Dec 1, 2003, at 3:20 PM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

      > I still (after coming home and looking into the Etymologies) believe I
      > used the right word if we are to use it by extension because _Daro!_
      > can mean "Stay still" as well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it
      > reads: stem _dar-_ stay, wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!,
      > stop, halt; dartha wait, stay, last, endure.

      I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
      desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
      joy, my pain). After all, if presented next week with someone wanting
      to translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
      stem _deri_? In this case, I would say, more appropriately (assuming
      that _deri_ can also be used transitively). _dartha_ looks more
      promising, but it is still not clear that it can be used to mean "to
      continue to be" something as opposed to simply "remain" in one place or
      state.

      As an aside, I note that these ad hoc usages seem never to have any
      awareness of the ways in which the same words are used in other ad hoc
      situations with entirely different meanings, even contradictory ones as
      here. If this is what it means to "speak Sindarin", then the effort to
      do so is indeed doomed.

      > So let's stop this arguing that could have no end.

      What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
      suggest does not have the desired meaning?

      > Would you give me your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

      My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
      have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
      desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that
      does have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something)
      -- so unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise
      you either to paraphrase, or to translate something else. If you don't
      want to do that, then I would say _dartha_ is your best bet, but with
      strong reservations.
    • Calwen Rudh
      ... desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you re right. ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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        Carl wrote:
        > I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
        desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
        joy, my pain).

        Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you're right.

        > After all, if presented next week with someone wanting to
        translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
        stem _deri_?

        Hmmm, assuming you wouldn't let it go through this list unnoticed ...
        no. :)

        > What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
        suggest does not have the desired meaning?

        This had no negative meaning. I might have rather written "guessing"
        or something less ambiguous. Or nothing.

        > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, …

        OK.

        So let's try to help poor Idril. What about something like:
        _Le hebithon vi guur niin, le i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin._
        "You I will keep in my heart, you - my vigor, my joy, my pain."

        - knowing that the pronominal ending is not sure. I don't have VT:44
        so I haven't read the analysis so I can't say anything about accuracy
        of _vi_.

        One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
        not. And that doesn't please me.

        Lucy
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien s languages is, and
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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          On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:06 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

          > One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
          > not. And that doesn't please me.

          I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped
          realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien's
          languages is, and how language in general actually works, and the
          pitfalls of attempting to "speak" a poorly-attested language.

          After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she really
          wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into her
          skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into Tengwar?



          --
          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • Calwen Rudh
          ... really ... her ... Tengwar? Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don t much understand people who want to get an English (or other language)
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
            wrote:
            > After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she
            really
            > wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into
            her
            > skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into
            Tengwar?

            Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don't much understand
            people who want to get an English (or other language) sentence in
            Sindarin tattood in Tengwar without knowing a piece of Sindarin
            itself. I wouldn't e.g. get a tattoo of wind in Svahili transcribed
            in Japanese signs although Svahili seems very exotic to me and I like
            the look of Japanese signs. But it doesn't mean I don'T want to help.
            It is their choice.

            Ok, Idril, so why don'T you get your sentence in English in Tengwar
            when we can't give you a good translation into Sindarin? :o)

            Lucy
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can t think of a verb that does have the
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 6, 2003
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              Carl F. Hostetter wote:

              > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
              have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
              desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that does
              have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something) -- so
              unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise you either
              to paraphrase,

              Some kind of paraphrase is the obvious solution here. If we assume that
              _le_ can function as subject "you", then "you remain" (etc.) can be
              rendered as _le him_, literally "you [are] continually" or "you're still
              [my pleasure, my pain or whatever]". See the entry KHIM in the Etymologies
              for the adverb _him_.

              - HKF
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