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Re: help needed.. please? :)

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  • Calwen Rudh
    ... probably ... speaker. I ... with ... English ... Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as you do (I mean you who could have
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
      wrote:
      >
      > On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:
      >
      > > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
      probably
      > > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native
      speaker. I
      > > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.
      >
      > You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem
      with
      > dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's
      English
      > abilities (well, at least not generally)...

      Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as
      you do (I mean you who could have given good advice to Idril), so I
      just came up with my suggestion. I still (after coming home and
      looking into the Etymologies) believe I used the right word if we
      are to use it by extension because _Daro!_ can mean "Stay still" as
      well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it reads: stem _dar-_ stay,
      wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!, stop, halt; dartha
      wait, stay, last, endure. I still haven't completed my "feeling"
      about Noldorin of Etymologies and its role (its affection) for LotR
      Sindarin but as you know yourself these are _almost_ the same. I am
      just wondering what you would propose? Also, giving such advice
      doesn't mean I've banished Sindarin and gave my heart to Neo-
      Sindarin, calling it Sindarin. I am well aware of the difference and
      I am trying hard to find the appropriate "translation" on my own -
      as I did here. I had _Daro!_ in my vocabulary, with a note from the
      Etym. since I used this in one of my Neo-Sindarin attempts.

      So let's stop this arguing that could have no end. Would you give me
      your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

      Thanks. Lucy
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... I still disagree. _deri_ stop, halt , certainly has none of the desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). After
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
        On Dec 1, 2003, at 3:20 PM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

        > I still (after coming home and looking into the Etymologies) believe I
        > used the right word if we are to use it by extension because _Daro!_
        > can mean "Stay still" as well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it
        > reads: stem _dar-_ stay, wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!,
        > stop, halt; dartha wait, stay, last, endure.

        I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
        desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
        joy, my pain). After all, if presented next week with someone wanting
        to translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
        stem _deri_? In this case, I would say, more appropriately (assuming
        that _deri_ can also be used transitively). _dartha_ looks more
        promising, but it is still not clear that it can be used to mean "to
        continue to be" something as opposed to simply "remain" in one place or
        state.

        As an aside, I note that these ad hoc usages seem never to have any
        awareness of the ways in which the same words are used in other ad hoc
        situations with entirely different meanings, even contradictory ones as
        here. If this is what it means to "speak Sindarin", then the effort to
        do so is indeed doomed.

        > So let's stop this arguing that could have no end.

        What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
        suggest does not have the desired meaning?

        > Would you give me your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

        My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
        have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
        desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that
        does have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something)
        -- so unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise
        you either to paraphrase, or to translate something else. If you don't
        want to do that, then I would say _dartha_ is your best bet, but with
        strong reservations.
      • Calwen Rudh
        ... desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you re right. ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
          Carl wrote:
          > I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
          desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
          joy, my pain).

          Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you're right.

          > After all, if presented next week with someone wanting to
          translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
          stem _deri_?

          Hmmm, assuming you wouldn't let it go through this list unnoticed ...
          no. :)

          > What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
          suggest does not have the desired meaning?

          This had no negative meaning. I might have rather written "guessing"
          or something less ambiguous. Or nothing.

          > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, …

          OK.

          So let's try to help poor Idril. What about something like:
          _Le hebithon vi guur niin, le i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin._
          "You I will keep in my heart, you - my vigor, my joy, my pain."

          - knowing that the pronominal ending is not sure. I don't have VT:44
          so I haven't read the analysis so I can't say anything about accuracy
          of _vi_.

          One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
          not. And that doesn't please me.

          Lucy
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien s languages is, and
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
            On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:06 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

            > One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
            > not. And that doesn't please me.

            I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped
            realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien's
            languages is, and how language in general actually works, and the
            pitfalls of attempting to "speak" a poorly-attested language.

            After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she really
            wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into her
            skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into Tengwar?



            --
            =============================================
            Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

            ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
            Ars longa, vita brevis.
            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
            "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
            a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
          • Calwen Rudh
            ... really ... her ... Tengwar? Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don t much understand people who want to get an English (or other language)
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
              wrote:
              > After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she
              really
              > wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into
              her
              > skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into
              Tengwar?

              Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don't much understand
              people who want to get an English (or other language) sentence in
              Sindarin tattood in Tengwar without knowing a piece of Sindarin
              itself. I wouldn't e.g. get a tattoo of wind in Svahili transcribed
              in Japanese signs although Svahili seems very exotic to me and I like
              the look of Japanese signs. But it doesn't mean I don'T want to help.
              It is their choice.

              Ok, Idril, so why don'T you get your sentence in English in Tengwar
              when we can't give you a good translation into Sindarin? :o)

              Lucy
            • Helge K. Fauskanger
              ... have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can t think of a verb that does have the
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 6, 2003
                Carl F. Hostetter wote:

                > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that does
                have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something) -- so
                unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise you either
                to paraphrase,

                Some kind of paraphrase is the obvious solution here. If we assume that
                _le_ can function as subject "you", then "you remain" (etc.) can be
                rendered as _le him_, literally "you [are] continually" or "you're still
                [my pleasure, my pain or whatever]". See the entry KHIM in the Etymologies
                for the adverb _him_.

                - HKF
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