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Re: help needed.. please? :)

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  • Calwen Rudh
    ... I would point out that this use ... to ... used ... cessation ... Rather, ... it, ... actual ... It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
      wrote:
      > Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin
      > pronominal ending meaning 'you' (sg),
      That is why I wrote:
      >> Be aware that mainly the verb is not sure since the ending for
      >> singular "you" is not attested, only assumed.

      I would point out that this use
      > of _dar-_ 'stay, wait, stop, remain' is entirely ad hoc, and likely
      to
      > be entirely inappropriate to the desired meaning. We see _dar-_
      used
      > only once, in the imperative _Daro!_, which Legolas translates as
      > "Stand still!". The primary sense of _dar-_ thus seems to be
      cessation
      > of motion or action. That is not the sense wanted here -- it would
      > yield rather the meaning "You stop my vigor, my joy, my pain".
      Rather,
      > you want a verb expressing endurance or continuance of actiion or
      > state.
      >
      > This is a classic mistake of dictionary-based translation. To avoid
      it,
      > you have to consider _all_ of the glosses together, as well as
      actual
      > usage, to get the full and precise meaning of words.

      It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
      never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
      suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used. As we
      use verbs to express something by extension, I thought this could be
      used by extension as well. If not, I am glad you pointed this out,
      I've learned more about SIndarin.

      Then, dear Idril, I have no better suggestion for you since there are
      only unatessted words for expressing your sentence, I guess. Maybe
      Carl could help directly, if it wouldn't be much border for him.

      Sorry.
      Lucy
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone s English abilities (well,
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
        On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

        > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
        > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
        > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.

        You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with
        dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's English
        abilities (well, at least not generally). Even native English speakers
        can and do make this sort of mistake frequently -- it is a problem that
        greatly plagues so-called "Neo-Sindarin" and "Neo-Quenya". It has
        instead to do with relying on isolated glosses taken from dictionaries,
        instead of considering the full context of a word, in both its usage
        and in comparison and contrast with other words of similar or related
        meanings.
      • Calwen Rudh
        ... probably ... speaker. I ... with ... English ... Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as you do (I mean you who could have
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
          wrote:
          >
          > On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:
          >
          > > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
          probably
          > > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native
          speaker. I
          > > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.
          >
          > You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem
          with
          > dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's
          English
          > abilities (well, at least not generally)...

          Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as
          you do (I mean you who could have given good advice to Idril), so I
          just came up with my suggestion. I still (after coming home and
          looking into the Etymologies) believe I used the right word if we
          are to use it by extension because _Daro!_ can mean "Stay still" as
          well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it reads: stem _dar-_ stay,
          wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!, stop, halt; dartha
          wait, stay, last, endure. I still haven't completed my "feeling"
          about Noldorin of Etymologies and its role (its affection) for LotR
          Sindarin but as you know yourself these are _almost_ the same. I am
          just wondering what you would propose? Also, giving such advice
          doesn't mean I've banished Sindarin and gave my heart to Neo-
          Sindarin, calling it Sindarin. I am well aware of the difference and
          I am trying hard to find the appropriate "translation" on my own -
          as I did here. I had _Daro!_ in my vocabulary, with a note from the
          Etym. since I used this in one of my Neo-Sindarin attempts.

          So let's stop this arguing that could have no end. Would you give me
          your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

          Thanks. Lucy
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... I still disagree. _deri_ stop, halt , certainly has none of the desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). After
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
            On Dec 1, 2003, at 3:20 PM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

            > I still (after coming home and looking into the Etymologies) believe I
            > used the right word if we are to use it by extension because _Daro!_
            > can mean "Stay still" as well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it
            > reads: stem _dar-_ stay, wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!,
            > stop, halt; dartha wait, stay, last, endure.

            I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
            desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
            joy, my pain). After all, if presented next week with someone wanting
            to translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
            stem _deri_? In this case, I would say, more appropriately (assuming
            that _deri_ can also be used transitively). _dartha_ looks more
            promising, but it is still not clear that it can be used to mean "to
            continue to be" something as opposed to simply "remain" in one place or
            state.

            As an aside, I note that these ad hoc usages seem never to have any
            awareness of the ways in which the same words are used in other ad hoc
            situations with entirely different meanings, even contradictory ones as
            here. If this is what it means to "speak Sindarin", then the effort to
            do so is indeed doomed.

            > So let's stop this arguing that could have no end.

            What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
            suggest does not have the desired meaning?

            > Would you give me your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

            My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
            have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
            desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that
            does have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something)
            -- so unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise
            you either to paraphrase, or to translate something else. If you don't
            want to do that, then I would say _dartha_ is your best bet, but with
            strong reservations.
          • Calwen Rudh
            ... desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you re right. ...
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
              Carl wrote:
              > I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
              desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
              joy, my pain).

              Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you're right.

              > After all, if presented next week with someone wanting to
              translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
              stem _deri_?

              Hmmm, assuming you wouldn't let it go through this list unnoticed ...
              no. :)

              > What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
              suggest does not have the desired meaning?

              This had no negative meaning. I might have rather written "guessing"
              or something less ambiguous. Or nothing.

              > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, …

              OK.

              So let's try to help poor Idril. What about something like:
              _Le hebithon vi guur niin, le i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin._
              "You I will keep in my heart, you - my vigor, my joy, my pain."

              - knowing that the pronominal ending is not sure. I don't have VT:44
              so I haven't read the analysis so I can't say anything about accuracy
              of _vi_.

              One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
              not. And that doesn't please me.

              Lucy
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              ... I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien s languages is, and
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
                On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:06 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                > One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
                > not. And that doesn't please me.

                I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped
                realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien's
                languages is, and how language in general actually works, and the
                pitfalls of attempting to "speak" a poorly-attested language.

                After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she really
                wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into her
                skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into Tengwar?



                --
                =============================================
                Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                Ars longa, vita brevis.
                The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
              • Calwen Rudh
                ... really ... her ... Tengwar? Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don t much understand people who want to get an English (or other language)
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she
                  really
                  > wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into
                  her
                  > skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into
                  Tengwar?

                  Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don't much understand
                  people who want to get an English (or other language) sentence in
                  Sindarin tattood in Tengwar without knowing a piece of Sindarin
                  itself. I wouldn't e.g. get a tattoo of wind in Svahili transcribed
                  in Japanese signs although Svahili seems very exotic to me and I like
                  the look of Japanese signs. But it doesn't mean I don'T want to help.
                  It is their choice.

                  Ok, Idril, so why don'T you get your sentence in English in Tengwar
                  when we can't give you a good translation into Sindarin? :o)

                  Lucy
                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                  ... have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can t think of a verb that does have the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 6, 2003
                    Carl F. Hostetter wote:

                    > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                    have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                    desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that does
                    have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something) -- so
                    unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise you either
                    to paraphrase,

                    Some kind of paraphrase is the obvious solution here. If we assume that
                    _le_ can function as subject "you", then "you remain" (etc.) can be
                    rendered as _le him_, literally "you [are] continually" or "you're still
                    [my pleasure, my pain or whatever]". See the entry KHIM in the Etymologies
                    for the adverb _him_.

                    - HKF
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