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Re: help needed.. please? :)

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  • Calwen Rudh
    Hi Idril, I d suggest this translation although I think it would be better if you do this yourself - this was not so hard : _Derich i orf niin, i lass niin,
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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      Hi Idril,

      I'd suggest this translation although I think it would be better if
      you do this yourself - this was not "so hard":
      _Derich i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin_
      "[You] remain the vigor my, the joy my, the pain my"

      Vocabulary:
      *derich -- "[you] remain": 2 ps sg, stem _dar-_, the pronominal
      ending (assumed): _-ich_, the _-i-_ in this ending causes umlaut in
      the previous syllable and changes A to E
      *i 'orf niin -- "the vigour my": Sindarin puts the adjectives and
      pronouns after the noun; _i_ is the singular definite article that
      causes lenition of the initial letter of the following noun and
      changes G (from original _gorf_ "vigor") to zero that is represented
      by an apostrophe (though _i 'orf_ "the vigor"); the double vowel _i_
      in _niin_ supposes to mean long vowel (_i_ with an accent), I dare
      not to put this character in the computer although we have this
      letter in my native tongue :o) for it can cause some problems.
      *i 'lass niin -- "the joy my": for the lenition, see the previous
      explanation; the original is _glass_ "joy", which is I think better
      than "desire" - BTW we don't have this latter word given by Tolkien
      either
      *i naeg niin -- "the pain my": the letter N is not seen to undergo
      lenition, so it remains the same even after the definite article

      I've chosen to use definite articles since I guess the given nouns
      are not definite enough without them. Remember that the F in _i 'orf_
      is pronounced as V since it's at the end of the word (that's why it's
      transcribed with ampa, not formen).

      That's it for the translation into Sindarin. Be aware that mainly the
      verb is not sure since the ending for singular "you" is not attested,
      only assumed. And even this translation may be found as wrong for
      others reading it.

      Now the transcription:

      If you want to transcribe this in Beleriand mode, then write:
      ×ando - yanta - romen - short carrier - harma× for _DERICH_
      ×short carrier - SPACE - anca (or nothing)* - anna - romen - ampa×
      for _I 'ORF_
      ×ore - short carrier with andaith (accent) above it - ore× for _NIIN_
      ×short carrier - SPACE - anca (or nothing)* - lambe - aze/esse/are
      (all of this is one letter but it has three names)× for _I 'LASS_,
      add the third row for _NIIN_
      ×short carrier - SPACE - ore - A letter (looks like small Roman _c_) -
      yanta - anga× (OR the diphthong AE could be written as A letter and
      a circumflex-like sign above it) for _I NAEG_ -- don't forget to add
      _NIIN_ at the end
      -------
      *some guys recommend to use no letter instead of the apostrophe
      because we don't know what is its value in Tengwar but I recommend to
      note this loss of a consonant down by anca that was once _gh_ sound
      that later disappeared and is written with the apostrophe "nowadays".
      The loss of a consonant process is described as gh -> 3 -> 0 (_'_),
      so my recommendation has its reason. The problem begins with the
      fact that we have no evidence of usage of this letter/these letters
      given by Tolkien.
      -------

      If you want the tehta mode, it is more complicated: there is no sure
      instruction how to write in Sindarin tehta mode, we have nothing but
      Tehta mode for Gondor. However, I believe there is a Sindarin tehta
      mode - I will show you both so you can choose:

      1) Sindarin tehta mode:
      DERICH: ando - romen with E-tehta above it - harma with I-tehta over
      it
      I 'ORF NIIN: anca with I-tehta over it - romen with O-tehta over it -
      ampa SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
      I 'LASS NIIN: anca with I-tehta above it - lambe - aze nuquerna with
      A-tehta over it SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
      I NAEG NIIN: numen with I-tehta above it - yanta with A-tehta above
      it - anga SPACE numen - long carrier - numen

      2) Tehta mode for Gondor:
      DERICH: ando - romen with E-tehta above it - hwesta with I-tehta over
      it
      I 'ORF NIIN: unque with I-tehta over it - romen with O-tehta over it -
      ampa SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
      I 'LASS NIIN: unque with I-tehta above it - lambe - aze nuquerna with
      A-tehta over it SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
      I NAEG NIIN: numen with I-tehta above it - yanta with A-tehta above
      it - ungwe SPACE numen - long carrier - numen

      For commas between the nouns you can use ALT0136 (tripple dot) when
      typing in Daniel Smith's fonts or leave the nouns as they are, just
      separated by spaces.

      I can transcribe this for you and prepare .gif pictures but it would
      take a day since I have the Photoshop magic program at home. So I can
      send the pictures later if you're interested.

      Hope I helped.
      Lucy
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin pronominal ending meaning you (sg), I would point out that this use of _dar-_ stay,
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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        On Dec 1, 2003, at 7:32 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

        > _Derich i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin_
        > "[You] remain the vigor my, the joy my, the pain my"
        >
        > Vocabulary:
        > *derich -- "[you] remain": 2 ps sg, stem _dar-_,

        Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin
        pronominal ending meaning 'you' (sg), I would point out that this use
        of _dar-_ 'stay, wait, stop, remain' is entirely ad hoc, and likely to
        be entirely inappropriate to the desired meaning. We see _dar-_ used
        only once, in the imperative _Daro!_, which Legolas translates as
        "Stand still!". The primary sense of _dar-_ thus seems to be cessation
        of motion or action. That is not the sense wanted here -- it would
        yield rather the meaning "You stop my vigor, my joy, my pain". Rather,
        you want a verb expressing endurance or continuance of actiion or
        state.

        This is a classic mistake of dictionary-based translation. To avoid it,
        you have to consider _all_ of the glosses together, as well as actual
        usage, to get the full and precise meaning of words.


        --
        =============================================
        Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
        Ars longa, vita brevis.
        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
      • Calwen Rudh
        ... I would point out that this use ... to ... used ... cessation ... Rather, ... it, ... actual ... It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
          wrote:
          > Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin
          > pronominal ending meaning 'you' (sg),
          That is why I wrote:
          >> Be aware that mainly the verb is not sure since the ending for
          >> singular "you" is not attested, only assumed.

          I would point out that this use
          > of _dar-_ 'stay, wait, stop, remain' is entirely ad hoc, and likely
          to
          > be entirely inappropriate to the desired meaning. We see _dar-_
          used
          > only once, in the imperative _Daro!_, which Legolas translates as
          > "Stand still!". The primary sense of _dar-_ thus seems to be
          cessation
          > of motion or action. That is not the sense wanted here -- it would
          > yield rather the meaning "You stop my vigor, my joy, my pain".
          Rather,
          > you want a verb expressing endurance or continuance of actiion or
          > state.
          >
          > This is a classic mistake of dictionary-based translation. To avoid
          it,
          > you have to consider _all_ of the glosses together, as well as
          actual
          > usage, to get the full and precise meaning of words.

          It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
          never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
          suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used. As we
          use verbs to express something by extension, I thought this could be
          used by extension as well. If not, I am glad you pointed this out,
          I've learned more about SIndarin.

          Then, dear Idril, I have no better suggestion for you since there are
          only unatessted words for expressing your sentence, I guess. Maybe
          Carl could help directly, if it wouldn't be much border for him.

          Sorry.
          Lucy
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone s English abilities (well,
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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            On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

            > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
            > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
            > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.

            You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with
            dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's English
            abilities (well, at least not generally). Even native English speakers
            can and do make this sort of mistake frequently -- it is a problem that
            greatly plagues so-called "Neo-Sindarin" and "Neo-Quenya". It has
            instead to do with relying on isolated glosses taken from dictionaries,
            instead of considering the full context of a word, in both its usage
            and in comparison and contrast with other words of similar or related
            meanings.
          • Calwen Rudh
            ... probably ... speaker. I ... with ... English ... Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as you do (I mean you who could have
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
              wrote:
              >
              > On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:
              >
              > > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
              probably
              > > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native
              speaker. I
              > > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.
              >
              > You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem
              with
              > dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's
              English
              > abilities (well, at least not generally)...

              Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as
              you do (I mean you who could have given good advice to Idril), so I
              just came up with my suggestion. I still (after coming home and
              looking into the Etymologies) believe I used the right word if we
              are to use it by extension because _Daro!_ can mean "Stay still" as
              well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it reads: stem _dar-_ stay,
              wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!, stop, halt; dartha
              wait, stay, last, endure. I still haven't completed my "feeling"
              about Noldorin of Etymologies and its role (its affection) for LotR
              Sindarin but as you know yourself these are _almost_ the same. I am
              just wondering what you would propose? Also, giving such advice
              doesn't mean I've banished Sindarin and gave my heart to Neo-
              Sindarin, calling it Sindarin. I am well aware of the difference and
              I am trying hard to find the appropriate "translation" on my own -
              as I did here. I had _Daro!_ in my vocabulary, with a note from the
              Etym. since I used this in one of my Neo-Sindarin attempts.

              So let's stop this arguing that could have no end. Would you give me
              your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

              Thanks. Lucy
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              ... I still disagree. _deri_ stop, halt , certainly has none of the desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). After
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                On Dec 1, 2003, at 3:20 PM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                > I still (after coming home and looking into the Etymologies) believe I
                > used the right word if we are to use it by extension because _Daro!_
                > can mean "Stay still" as well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it
                > reads: stem _dar-_ stay, wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!,
                > stop, halt; dartha wait, stay, last, endure.

                I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
                desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
                joy, my pain). After all, if presented next week with someone wanting
                to translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
                stem _deri_? In this case, I would say, more appropriately (assuming
                that _deri_ can also be used transitively). _dartha_ looks more
                promising, but it is still not clear that it can be used to mean "to
                continue to be" something as opposed to simply "remain" in one place or
                state.

                As an aside, I note that these ad hoc usages seem never to have any
                awareness of the ways in which the same words are used in other ad hoc
                situations with entirely different meanings, even contradictory ones as
                here. If this is what it means to "speak Sindarin", then the effort to
                do so is indeed doomed.

                > So let's stop this arguing that could have no end.

                What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
                suggest does not have the desired meaning?

                > Would you give me your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

                My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that
                does have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something)
                -- so unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise
                you either to paraphrase, or to translate something else. If you don't
                want to do that, then I would say _dartha_ is your best bet, but with
                strong reservations.
              • Calwen Rudh
                ... desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you re right. ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                  Carl wrote:
                  > I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
                  desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
                  joy, my pain).

                  Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you're right.

                  > After all, if presented next week with someone wanting to
                  translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
                  stem _deri_?

                  Hmmm, assuming you wouldn't let it go through this list unnoticed ...
                  no. :)

                  > What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
                  suggest does not have the desired meaning?

                  This had no negative meaning. I might have rather written "guessing"
                  or something less ambiguous. Or nothing.

                  > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, …

                  OK.

                  So let's try to help poor Idril. What about something like:
                  _Le hebithon vi guur niin, le i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin._
                  "You I will keep in my heart, you - my vigor, my joy, my pain."

                  - knowing that the pronominal ending is not sure. I don't have VT:44
                  so I haven't read the analysis so I can't say anything about accuracy
                  of _vi_.

                  One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
                  not. And that doesn't please me.

                  Lucy
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  ... I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien s languages is, and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                    On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:06 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                    > One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
                    > not. And that doesn't please me.

                    I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped
                    realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien's
                    languages is, and how language in general actually works, and the
                    pitfalls of attempting to "speak" a poorly-attested language.

                    After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she really
                    wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into her
                    skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into Tengwar?



                    --
                    =============================================
                    Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                    ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                    Ars longa, vita brevis.
                    The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                    "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                    a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                  • Calwen Rudh
                    ... really ... her ... Tengwar? Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don t much understand people who want to get an English (or other language)
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                      wrote:
                      > After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she
                      really
                      > wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into
                      her
                      > skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into
                      Tengwar?

                      Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don't much understand
                      people who want to get an English (or other language) sentence in
                      Sindarin tattood in Tengwar without knowing a piece of Sindarin
                      itself. I wouldn't e.g. get a tattoo of wind in Svahili transcribed
                      in Japanese signs although Svahili seems very exotic to me and I like
                      the look of Japanese signs. But it doesn't mean I don'T want to help.
                      It is their choice.

                      Ok, Idril, so why don'T you get your sentence in English in Tengwar
                      when we can't give you a good translation into Sindarin? :o)

                      Lucy
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can t think of a verb that does have the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 6, 2003
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                        Carl F. Hostetter wote:

                        > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                        have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                        desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that does
                        have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something) -- so
                        unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise you either
                        to paraphrase,

                        Some kind of paraphrase is the obvious solution here. If we assume that
                        _le_ can function as subject "you", then "you remain" (etc.) can be
                        rendered as _le him_, literally "you [are] continually" or "you're still
                        [my pleasure, my pain or whatever]". See the entry KHIM in the Etymologies
                        for the adverb _him_.

                        - HKF
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