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translation question

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  • staci
    I am getting a tattoo of the quote Not all those who wander are lost in Elvish. Through another online resource, I was given the translation Law pain i
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 28, 2003
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      I am getting a tattoo of the quote "Not all those who wander are
      lost" in Elvish. Through another online resource, I was given the
      translation "Law pain i reviar mistar aen" and was told this is what
      it will look like:
      http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/samstreet/untitledtebn.jpg.

      My question to everyone here is, is this correct? I want to be
      absolutely 100% sure it is the right translation/script before I get
      this tattoo. So can anyone here double-check it for me? Thanks a
      million in advance!
    • elimloth
      ... what ... That image depicts the English phrase not all those... transcribed into Tengwar using the English mode developed by Mans Bjorkman. It s pretty
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 28, 2003
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "staci" <ser478@y...> wrote:
        > I am getting a tattoo of the quote "Not all those who wander are
        > lost" in Elvish. Through another online resource, I was given the
        > translation "Law pain i reviar mistar aen" and was told this is
        what
        > it will look like:
        > http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/samstreet/untitledtebn.jpg

        That image depicts the English phrase "not all those..." transcribed
        into Tengwar using the English mode developed by Mans Bjorkman. It's
        pretty good for a machine translation though it should be cleaned up
        by removing the trailing silent 'e' tehta in 'those' to an e-tehta
        under the Silme 's'.

        Have a look at:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/notallthose.PNG

        > My question to everyone here is, is this correct?

        The Sindarin phrase is a translation from the Riddle of Strider by
        Ryszard Derdzinski. In http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/riddle.htm he
        writes:

        Law pain i reviar mistar aen;
        Not all [pl.] that wander are strayed;

        Though this phrase is approximately correct, it is built out of
        reconstructed words and interpretations that are still in
        controversy. So though decent neo-Sindarin, it is not 100% correct.

        Elimloth
      • Staci Robinson
        Though this phrase is approximately correct, it is built out of reconstructed words and interpretations that are still in controversy. So though decent
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 29, 2003
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          'Though this phrase is approximately correct, it is
          built out of reconstructed words and interpretations
          that are still in controversy. So though decent
          neo-Sindarin, it is not 100% correct.'

          So is there a better way to translate and write this
          phrase? Or would you suggest sticking to what I've
          got (the image you linked me to)?

          Thank you so much for your help!

          -staci

          --- elimloth <draco@...> wrote:
          > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "staci"
          > <ser478@y...> wrote:
          > > I am getting a tattoo of the quote "Not all those
          > who wander are
          > > lost" in Elvish. Through another online resource,
          > I was given the
          > > translation "Law pain i reviar mistar aen" and was
          > told this is
          > what
          > > it will look like:
          > >
          >
          http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/samstreet/untitledtebn.jpg
          >
          > That image depicts the English phrase "not all
          > those..." transcribed
          > into Tengwar using the English mode developed by
          > Mans Bjorkman. It's
          > pretty good for a machine translation though it
          > should be cleaned up
          > by removing the trailing silent 'e' tehta in 'those'
          > to an e-tehta
          > under the Silme 's'.
          >
          > Have a look at:
          >
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/notallthose.PNG
          >
          > > My question to everyone here is, is this correct?
          >
          >
          > The Sindarin phrase is a translation from the Riddle
          > of Strider by
          > Ryszard Derdzinski. In
          > http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/riddle.htm he
          > writes:
          >
          > Law pain i reviar mistar aen;
          > Not all [pl.] that wander are strayed;
          >
          > Though this phrase is approximately correct, it is
          > built out of
          > reconstructed words and interpretations that are
          > still in
          > controversy. So though decent neo-Sindarin, it is
          > not 100% correct.
          >
          > Elimloth
          >
          >
          >


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        • Helge K. Fauskanger
          ... Elvish. Through another online resource, I was given the translation Law pain i reviar mistar aen The exact interpretation of _aen_ is uncertain and
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 2, 2003
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            > I am getting a tattoo of the quote "Not all those who wander are lost" in
            Elvish. Through another online resource, I was given the translation "Law
            pain i reviar mistar aen"

            The exact interpretation of _aen_ is uncertain and controversial, and the
            word _law_ "not" is an extrapolation (from Quenya _lá_).

            This one may be slightly more "safe" in the sense that the grammar is less
            controversial: _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_. "All who wander do not stray."
            Irrespective of some phonological updating and error-correction, all the
            words are attested (though sometimes in mutated forms).

            Fewer letters as well, which in your case means less pain...

            - HKF
          • Calwen Rudh
            ... is less ... stray. ... all the ... Are you sure that Not all who wander [do] stray. and All who wander do not stray. are the same? The first - bare
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 3, 2003
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
              <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
              > This one may be slightly more "safe" in the sense that the grammar
              is less
              > controversial: _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_. "All who wander do not
              stray."
              > Irrespective of some phonological updating and error-correction,
              all the
              > words are attested (though sometimes in mutated forms).

              Are you sure that "Not all who wander [do] stray." and "All who
              wander do not stray." are the same? The first - bare sentence -
              reads: "Not all stray." but the latter reads "All do not stray."
              [lit.] and there is a difference. Why can it be _Ú-pain i reviar
              mistaid._ meaning "Not all who wander [are] strayed." (I only hope
              there is no lenition in _mistaid_ but this one is not a direct
              object, is it?)?

              Lucy

              P.S. The other thing is that 'spinster core' ignores your suggestion
              posting a double tripple check with the original sentence ...
            • Chuppy Celdran
              thanks for your help, you think you can translate that into the sign used not the word?? ... From: Calwen Rudh To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday,
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 3, 2003
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                thanks for your help, you think you can translate that into the sign used not the word??

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Calwen Rudh
                To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:34 PM
                Subject: [elfscript] Re: translation question


                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                > This one may be slightly more "safe" in the sense that the grammar
                is less
                > controversial: _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_. "All who wander do not
                stray."
                > Irrespective of some phonological updating and error-correction,
                all the
                > words are attested (though sometimes in mutated forms).

                Are you sure that "Not all who wander [do] stray." and "All who
                wander do not stray." are the same? The first - bare sentence -
                reads: "Not all stray." but the latter reads "All do not stray."
                [lit.] and there is a difference. Why can it be _Ú-pain i reviar
                mistaid._ meaning "Not all who wander [are] strayed." (I only hope
                there is no lenition in _mistaid_ but this one is not a direct
                object, is it?)?

                Lucy

                P.S. The other thing is that 'spinster core' ignores your suggestion
                posting a double tripple check with the original sentence ...


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              • Calwen Rudh
                ... sign used not the word?? ... I am not sure that I understood your question... You want the English sentence transcribed in Tengwar or that Sindarin attempt
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 3, 2003
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Chuppy Celdran" <chuppy@i...>
                  wrote:
                  > thanks for your help, you think you can translate that into the
                  sign used not the word??
                  >

                  I am not sure that I understood your question... You want the
                  English sentence transcribed in Tengwar or that Sindarin attempt
                  transcribed in Tengwar? Or even something else?

                  Lucy
                • Calwen Rudh
                  ... Let s see ... hmmm ... oh, sure: where s the lenition after _ú-_, Lucy? So: _Ú-bain i reviar ..._ Sorry. Lucy
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 3, 2003
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                    I wrote:
                    > Why can it be _Ú-pain i reviar ... _

                    Let's see ... hmmm ... oh, sure: where's the lenition after _ú-_,
                    Lucy?

                    So: _Ú-bain i reviar ..._

                    Sorry. Lucy
                  • spinster core
                    I honestly was not ignoring anyone s advice/suggestions. I did not get said advice until one day after I posted my second question. ... grammar ... suggestion
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 3, 2003
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                      I honestly was not ignoring anyone's advice/suggestions. I did not
                      get said advice until one day after I posted my second question.

                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Calwen Rudh" <calwen.rudh@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                      > <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                      > > This one may be slightly more "safe" in the sense that the
                      grammar
                      > is less
                      > > controversial: _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_. "All who wander do not
                      > stray."
                      > > Irrespective of some phonological updating and error-correction,
                      > all the
                      > > words are attested (though sometimes in mutated forms).
                      >
                      > Are you sure that "Not all who wander [do] stray." and "All who
                      > wander do not stray." are the same? The first - bare sentence -
                      > reads: "Not all stray." but the latter reads "All do not stray."
                      > [lit.] and there is a difference. Why can it be _Ú-pain i reviar
                      > mistaid._ meaning "Not all who wander [are] strayed." (I only hope
                      > there is no lenition in _mistaid_ but this one is not a direct
                      > object, is it?)?
                      >
                      > Lucy
                      >
                      > P.S. The other thing is that 'spinster core' ignores your
                      suggestion
                      > posting a double tripple check with the original sentence ...
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... not the word?? This code will produce _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_ in the Mode of Beleriand: q]Õ6 ` 7lr`]7 .Fr`81]7 Perhaps you want a tehta mode instead?
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 7, 2003
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                        Chuppy Celdran wrote:

                        > thanks for your help, you think you can translate that into the sign used
                        not the word??

                        This code will produce _Pain i reviar ú-vistar_ in the Mode of Beleriand:

                        q]Õ6 ` 7lr`]7 .Fr`81]7

                        Perhaps you want a tehta mode instead?

                        One uncertain point: since the V of _ú-vistar_ is a lenited form of M (the
                        unlenited verbal stem being _mista-_), some would prefer to use a special
                        form of the sign for M, as in the King's Letter. In the Mode of Beleriand,
                        this would probably be a modified form of Vala (since in this mode, Malta
                        denotes a _double_ MM). But then the whole thing becomes somewhat
                        speculative.

                        Lucy wrote:

                        > Are you sure that "Not all who wander [do] stray." and "All who wander
                        do not stray." are the same?

                        No, but the meaning of the original poem is clearly that NOT all who
                        "wander" (i.e. the Dúnedain rangers to whom Aragorn belongs) are lost
                        (they "wander" intentionally, i.e. function as rangers -- not planlessly or
                        involuntarily but for a purpose, and hence are not "lost" as other
                        wanderers in the wild may be).

                        - HKF
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