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Full Tengwar Mode for Portuguese

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  • Kyrmse
    Yes, I know not everyone knows Portuguese (which happens to be my mothertongue -- I m Brasilian!). But a full tengwar mode (as opposed to a tehta-mode) was
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 13, 2003
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      Yes, I know not everyone knows Portuguese (which happens to be my
      mothertongue -- I'm Brasilian!). But a full tengwar mode (as opposed
      to a tehta-mode) was still lacking.
      I propose one at www.geocities.com/otsoandor/MTPP.htm -- _in_
      Portuguese (sorry!).
    • mach
      I ve always thought it s easier to represent a complex vowel system with tehtar than with full writing since the attested vowel tehtar show relations between
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 14, 2003
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        I've always thought it's easier to represent a complex vowel system with
        tehtar than with 'full writing' since the attested vowel tehtar show
        relations between sounds and shapes, whereas I haven't been able to find
        such relations in the attested 'full writing' vowels. So I highly estimate
        you for tackling that tricky task.

        I wouldn't say that the distinction between phonemic and orthographic modes
        is only found in modern tongues. We can observe the same in Quenya, which is
        said to be spelled orthographically but attested to be spelled phonemically.

        You've misspelled _MTPP_ (_Modo de Tengwar Pleno do Português_).

        I don't like the choice of vala for the open _é_, since Tolkien used this
        letter for _u_, and after all, it's not similar to the letter you suggest
        for closed _ê_. Maybe, you could use yanta and the c-shaped stemless calma
        for the two e-sounds. They're both attested for _e_, and they're at least a
        little bit similar. Of course, you would need another letter for _a_ then.
        If you'd express the open _ó_ with the u-shaped version of anna (still more
        similar to the letter for closed _ô_, anna), then you could use vilya for
        _a_.

        I don't like the use of calmatéma for both velar and palatal(-veolar)
        consonants. Throughout all attested modes, témar and tyeller keep always
        consistent, I mean, they're only used for one kind of sounds.

        You suggest to represent nasalization with a bar upon the following
        consonant (or with a following nwalme). Why not place that bar on the vowel
        letter itself? I think that nasal diphthongs could bear both the bar and the
        sign for following _y/w_.

        suilaid
        mach
      • Kyrmse
        The second version -- revised after much constructive feedback from fellow tolkiendili -- is up at http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/MTPP.htm (as usual open,
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 24, 2003
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          The second version -- revised after much constructive feedback from
          fellow tolkiendili -- is up at
          http://www.geocities.com/otsoandor/MTPP.htm
          (as usual open, of course, to everyone's criticism!)
        • Idril Celebrindal
          umm.. hi ^^ i was just wondering if anyone could help me in translating this: you remain my power, my pleasure, my pain (yes, yes, it s from kiss from a
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 29, 2003
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            umm.. hi ^^

            i was just wondering if anyone could help me in translating this:

            "you remain my power, my pleasure, my pain" (yes, yes, it's from "kiss from a rose" by seal..)

            out of extreme curiosity and the hopeless desire to learn sindarin (which until now i don't know where to start..).. i really need your help :P

            ..and if it wouldn't be too much to ask, how do i transcribe this to tengwar?

            thanks a million!


            Idril



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          • laurifindil
            ... it is not possible to learn Tolkien s Elvish languages just as any natural language, such as French or Russian. You can study Tolkien s Elvish languages.
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 30, 2003
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Idril Celebrindal
              <idrililluminati@y...> wrote:
              > umm.. hi ^^
              >
              > i was just wondering if anyone could help me in translating this:
              >
              > "you remain my power, my pleasure, my pain" (yes, yes, it's from "kiss from a rose" by seal..)
              >

              it is not possible to learn Tolkien's Elvish languages just as any
              natural language, such as French or Russian.

              You can study Tolkien's Elvish languages.

              Begin with appendixes E and F of the "Lord of Rings". Then, continue by
              reading the linguistic appendix of " Silmarillion ". Then, you will be
              able to read the very instructive " Quendi and Eldar - Essekenta
              Eldarinwa ", published in " The War of the Jewels ". Then, "Lammas" in
              "The Lost Road ", then go for "Etymologies" in the same book. Then you
              will be able of distinguish, without too much help, Sindarin from
              Quenya.
              For Sindarin Grammar, start with "Our Father" in Vinyar tengwar.
            • Idril Celebrindal
              well, actually i tried translating this already using dragon flame. although there is no direct translation to pleasure , i substituted it with desire
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 30, 2003
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                well, actually i tried translating this already using dragon flame. although there is no direct translation to "pleasure", i substituted it with "desire" instead. i'm still having a bit of trouble with the grammar, since some sources tend to be inconsistent.. help..


                idril



                laurifindil <ejk@...> wrote:
                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Idril Celebrindal
                <idrililluminati@y...> wrote:
                > umm.. hi ^^
                >
                > i was just wondering if anyone could help me in translating this:
                >
                > "you remain my power, my pleasure, my pain" (yes, yes, it's from "kiss from a rose" by seal..)
                >

                it is not possible to learn Tolkien's Elvish languages just as any
                natural language, such as French or Russian.

                You can study Tolkien's Elvish languages.

                Begin with appendixes E and F of the "Lord of Rings". Then, continue by
                reading the linguistic appendix of " Silmarillion ". Then, you will be
                able to read the very instructive " Quendi and Eldar - Essekenta
                Eldarinwa ", published in " The War of the Jewels ". Then, "Lammas" in
                "The Lost Road ", then go for "Etymologies" in the same book. Then you
                will be able of distinguish, without too much help, Sindarin from
                Quenya.
                For Sindarin Grammar, start with "Our Father" in Vinyar tengwar.



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              • Calwen Rudh
                Hi Idril, I d suggest this translation although I think it would be better if you do this yourself - this was not so hard : _Derich i orf niin, i lass niin,
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  Hi Idril,

                  I'd suggest this translation although I think it would be better if
                  you do this yourself - this was not "so hard":
                  _Derich i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin_
                  "[You] remain the vigor my, the joy my, the pain my"

                  Vocabulary:
                  *derich -- "[you] remain": 2 ps sg, stem _dar-_, the pronominal
                  ending (assumed): _-ich_, the _-i-_ in this ending causes umlaut in
                  the previous syllable and changes A to E
                  *i 'orf niin -- "the vigour my": Sindarin puts the adjectives and
                  pronouns after the noun; _i_ is the singular definite article that
                  causes lenition of the initial letter of the following noun and
                  changes G (from original _gorf_ "vigor") to zero that is represented
                  by an apostrophe (though _i 'orf_ "the vigor"); the double vowel _i_
                  in _niin_ supposes to mean long vowel (_i_ with an accent), I dare
                  not to put this character in the computer although we have this
                  letter in my native tongue :o) for it can cause some problems.
                  *i 'lass niin -- "the joy my": for the lenition, see the previous
                  explanation; the original is _glass_ "joy", which is I think better
                  than "desire" - BTW we don't have this latter word given by Tolkien
                  either
                  *i naeg niin -- "the pain my": the letter N is not seen to undergo
                  lenition, so it remains the same even after the definite article

                  I've chosen to use definite articles since I guess the given nouns
                  are not definite enough without them. Remember that the F in _i 'orf_
                  is pronounced as V since it's at the end of the word (that's why it's
                  transcribed with ampa, not formen).

                  That's it for the translation into Sindarin. Be aware that mainly the
                  verb is not sure since the ending for singular "you" is not attested,
                  only assumed. And even this translation may be found as wrong for
                  others reading it.

                  Now the transcription:

                  If you want to transcribe this in Beleriand mode, then write:
                  ×ando - yanta - romen - short carrier - harma× for _DERICH_
                  ×short carrier - SPACE - anca (or nothing)* - anna - romen - ampa×
                  for _I 'ORF_
                  ×ore - short carrier with andaith (accent) above it - ore× for _NIIN_
                  ×short carrier - SPACE - anca (or nothing)* - lambe - aze/esse/are
                  (all of this is one letter but it has three names)× for _I 'LASS_,
                  add the third row for _NIIN_
                  ×short carrier - SPACE - ore - A letter (looks like small Roman _c_) -
                  yanta - anga× (OR the diphthong AE could be written as A letter and
                  a circumflex-like sign above it) for _I NAEG_ -- don't forget to add
                  _NIIN_ at the end
                  -------
                  *some guys recommend to use no letter instead of the apostrophe
                  because we don't know what is its value in Tengwar but I recommend to
                  note this loss of a consonant down by anca that was once _gh_ sound
                  that later disappeared and is written with the apostrophe "nowadays".
                  The loss of a consonant process is described as gh -> 3 -> 0 (_'_),
                  so my recommendation has its reason. The problem begins with the
                  fact that we have no evidence of usage of this letter/these letters
                  given by Tolkien.
                  -------

                  If you want the tehta mode, it is more complicated: there is no sure
                  instruction how to write in Sindarin tehta mode, we have nothing but
                  Tehta mode for Gondor. However, I believe there is a Sindarin tehta
                  mode - I will show you both so you can choose:

                  1) Sindarin tehta mode:
                  DERICH: ando - romen with E-tehta above it - harma with I-tehta over
                  it
                  I 'ORF NIIN: anca with I-tehta over it - romen with O-tehta over it -
                  ampa SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
                  I 'LASS NIIN: anca with I-tehta above it - lambe - aze nuquerna with
                  A-tehta over it SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
                  I NAEG NIIN: numen with I-tehta above it - yanta with A-tehta above
                  it - anga SPACE numen - long carrier - numen

                  2) Tehta mode for Gondor:
                  DERICH: ando - romen with E-tehta above it - hwesta with I-tehta over
                  it
                  I 'ORF NIIN: unque with I-tehta over it - romen with O-tehta over it -
                  ampa SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
                  I 'LASS NIIN: unque with I-tehta above it - lambe - aze nuquerna with
                  A-tehta over it SPACE numen - long carrier - numen
                  I NAEG NIIN: numen with I-tehta above it - yanta with A-tehta above
                  it - ungwe SPACE numen - long carrier - numen

                  For commas between the nouns you can use ALT0136 (tripple dot) when
                  typing in Daniel Smith's fonts or leave the nouns as they are, just
                  separated by spaces.

                  I can transcribe this for you and prepare .gif pictures but it would
                  take a day since I have the Photoshop magic program at home. So I can
                  send the pictures later if you're interested.

                  Hope I helped.
                  Lucy
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  ... Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin pronominal ending meaning you (sg), I would point out that this use of _dar-_ stay,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    On Dec 1, 2003, at 7:32 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                    > _Derich i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin_
                    > "[You] remain the vigor my, the joy my, the pain my"
                    >
                    > Vocabulary:
                    > *derich -- "[you] remain": 2 ps sg, stem _dar-_,

                    Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin
                    pronominal ending meaning 'you' (sg), I would point out that this use
                    of _dar-_ 'stay, wait, stop, remain' is entirely ad hoc, and likely to
                    be entirely inappropriate to the desired meaning. We see _dar-_ used
                    only once, in the imperative _Daro!_, which Legolas translates as
                    "Stand still!". The primary sense of _dar-_ thus seems to be cessation
                    of motion or action. That is not the sense wanted here -- it would
                    yield rather the meaning "You stop my vigor, my joy, my pain". Rather,
                    you want a verb expressing endurance or continuance of actiion or
                    state.

                    This is a classic mistake of dictionary-based translation. To avoid it,
                    you have to consider _all_ of the glosses together, as well as actual
                    usage, to get the full and precise meaning of words.


                    --
                    =============================================
                    Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                    ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                    Ars longa, vita brevis.
                    The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                    "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                    a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                  • Calwen Rudh
                    ... I would point out that this use ... to ... used ... cessation ... Rather, ... it, ... actual ... It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                      wrote:
                      > Leaving aside the fact that _-ch_ is nowhere attested as a Sindarin
                      > pronominal ending meaning 'you' (sg),
                      That is why I wrote:
                      >> Be aware that mainly the verb is not sure since the ending for
                      >> singular "you" is not attested, only assumed.

                      I would point out that this use
                      > of _dar-_ 'stay, wait, stop, remain' is entirely ad hoc, and likely
                      to
                      > be entirely inappropriate to the desired meaning. We see _dar-_
                      used
                      > only once, in the imperative _Daro!_, which Legolas translates as
                      > "Stand still!". The primary sense of _dar-_ thus seems to be
                      cessation
                      > of motion or action. That is not the sense wanted here -- it would
                      > yield rather the meaning "You stop my vigor, my joy, my pain".
                      Rather,
                      > you want a verb expressing endurance or continuance of actiion or
                      > state.
                      >
                      > This is a classic mistake of dictionary-based translation. To avoid
                      it,
                      > you have to consider _all_ of the glosses together, as well as
                      actual
                      > usage, to get the full and precise meaning of words.

                      It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
                      never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
                      suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used. As we
                      use verbs to express something by extension, I thought this could be
                      used by extension as well. If not, I am glad you pointed this out,
                      I've learned more about SIndarin.

                      Then, dear Idril, I have no better suggestion for you since there are
                      only unatessted words for expressing your sentence, I guess. Maybe
                      Carl could help directly, if it wouldn't be much border for him.

                      Sorry.
                      Lucy
                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      ... You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone s English abilities (well,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                        On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                        > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will probably
                        > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native speaker. I
                        > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.

                        You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem with
                        dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's English
                        abilities (well, at least not generally). Even native English speakers
                        can and do make this sort of mistake frequently -- it is a problem that
                        greatly plagues so-called "Neo-Sindarin" and "Neo-Quenya". It has
                        instead to do with relying on isolated glosses taken from dictionaries,
                        instead of considering the full context of a word, in both its usage
                        and in comparison and contrast with other words of similar or related
                        meanings.
                      • Calwen Rudh
                        ... probably ... speaker. I ... with ... English ... Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as you do (I mean you who could have
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > On Dec 1, 2003, at 8:58 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:
                          >
                          > > It is true that my English is far from perfect and I will
                          probably
                          > > never be good enough to speak or know English as a native
                          speaker. I
                          > > suggested this verb because I thought it could have been used.
                          >
                          > You seem to be taking this awfully hard! Note that this problem
                          with
                          > dictionary translation has nothing at all to do with anyone's
                          English
                          > abilities (well, at least not generally)...

                          Sure, still there is no doubt I will never speak or know English as
                          you do (I mean you who could have given good advice to Idril), so I
                          just came up with my suggestion. I still (after coming home and
                          looking into the Etymologies) believe I used the right word if we
                          are to use it by extension because _Daro!_ can mean "Stay still" as
                          well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it reads: stem _dar-_ stay,
                          wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!, stop, halt; dartha
                          wait, stay, last, endure. I still haven't completed my "feeling"
                          about Noldorin of Etymologies and its role (its affection) for LotR
                          Sindarin but as you know yourself these are _almost_ the same. I am
                          just wondering what you would propose? Also, giving such advice
                          doesn't mean I've banished Sindarin and gave my heart to Neo-
                          Sindarin, calling it Sindarin. I am well aware of the difference and
                          I am trying hard to find the appropriate "translation" on my own -
                          as I did here. I had _Daro!_ in my vocabulary, with a note from the
                          Etym. since I used this in one of my Neo-Sindarin attempts.

                          So let's stop this arguing that could have no end. Would you give me
                          your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

                          Thanks. Lucy
                        • Carl F. Hostetter
                          ... I still disagree. _deri_ stop, halt , certainly has none of the desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). After
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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                            On Dec 1, 2003, at 3:20 PM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                            > I still (after coming home and looking into the Etymologies) believe I
                            > used the right word if we are to use it by extension because _Daro!_
                            > can mean "Stay still" as well as "Halt!" or "Stop!". In Etym., it
                            > reads: stem _dar-_ stay, wait, stop, remain. N deri, imperative daro!,
                            > stop, halt; dartha wait, stay, last, endure.

                            I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
                            desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
                            joy, my pain). After all, if presented next week with someone wanting
                            to translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
                            stem _deri_? In this case, I would say, more appropriately (assuming
                            that _deri_ can also be used transitively). _dartha_ looks more
                            promising, but it is still not clear that it can be used to mean "to
                            continue to be" something as opposed to simply "remain" in one place or
                            state.

                            As an aside, I note that these ad hoc usages seem never to have any
                            awareness of the ways in which the same words are used in other ad hoc
                            situations with entirely different meanings, even contradictory ones as
                            here. If this is what it means to "speak Sindarin", then the effort to
                            do so is indeed doomed.

                            > So let's stop this arguing that could have no end.

                            What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
                            suggest does not have the desired meaning?

                            > Would you give me your DIRECT - if possible - advice, please?

                            My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                            have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                            desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that
                            does have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something)
                            -- so unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise
                            you either to paraphrase, or to translate something else. If you don't
                            want to do that, then I would say _dartha_ is your best bet, but with
                            strong reservations.
                          • Calwen Rudh
                            ... desired meaning, which is to continue to be something (my vigor, my joy, my pain). Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you re right. ...
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                              Carl wrote:
                              > I still disagree. _deri_ 'stop, halt', certainly has none of the
                              desired meaning, which is "to continue to be" something (my vigor, my
                              joy, my pain).

                              Already then. I was thinking of it and have to admit you're right.

                              > After all, if presented next week with someone wanting to
                              translate "You stop my heart", would you not then suggest the same
                              stem _deri_?

                              Hmmm, assuming you wouldn't let it go through this list unnoticed ...
                              no. :)

                              > What "arguing"? How is it "arguing" to point out that the word you
                              suggest does not have the desired meaning?

                              This had no negative meaning. I might have rather written "guessing"
                              or something less ambiguous. Or nothing.

                              > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, …

                              OK.

                              So let's try to help poor Idril. What about something like:
                              _Le hebithon vi guur niin, le i 'orf niin, i 'lass niin, i naeg niin._
                              "You I will keep in my heart, you - my vigor, my joy, my pain."

                              - knowing that the pronominal ending is not sure. I don't have VT:44
                              so I haven't read the analysis so I can't say anything about accuracy
                              of _vi_.

                              One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
                              not. And that doesn't please me.

                              Lucy
                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                              ... I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien s languages is, and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                                On Dec 2, 2003, at 4:06 AM, Calwen Rudh wrote:

                                > One little question in the end: were we of any help to Idril? I guess
                                > not. And that doesn't please me.

                                I think it is quite a bit of help -- whether the person being so helped
                                realizes it or not -- to show what the actual nature of Tolkien's
                                languages is, and how language in general actually works, and the
                                pitfalls of attempting to "speak" a poorly-attested language.

                                After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she really
                                wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into her
                                skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into Tengwar?



                                --
                                =============================================
                                Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                                ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                                Ars longa, vita brevis.
                                The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                                "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                                a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                              • Calwen Rudh
                                ... really ... her ... Tengwar? Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don t much understand people who want to get an English (or other language)
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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                                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > After all, if none of these things concern "Idril", if all she
                                  really
                                  > wants it to have something pretty-looking permanently etched into
                                  her
                                  > skin, then why not just transliterate the English phrase into
                                  Tengwar?

                                  Well this was in my mind too. To be honest I don't much understand
                                  people who want to get an English (or other language) sentence in
                                  Sindarin tattood in Tengwar without knowing a piece of Sindarin
                                  itself. I wouldn't e.g. get a tattoo of wind in Svahili transcribed
                                  in Japanese signs although Svahili seems very exotic to me and I like
                                  the look of Japanese signs. But it doesn't mean I don'T want to help.
                                  It is their choice.

                                  Ok, Idril, so why don'T you get your sentence in English in Tengwar
                                  when we can't give you a good translation into Sindarin? :o)

                                  Lucy
                                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                  ... have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can t think of a verb that does have the
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 6, 2003
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                                    Carl F. Hostetter wote:

                                    > My only "DIRECT" advice is to not use _deri_, since it clearly does not
                                    have the desired meaning (in fact, has pretty much the opposite of the
                                    desired meaning in this case). Offhand, I can't think of a verb that does
                                    have the desired meaning -- again, "to continue to be" (something) -- so
                                    unless someone can suggest such a verb, I would otherwise advise you either
                                    to paraphrase,

                                    Some kind of paraphrase is the obvious solution here. If we assume that
                                    _le_ can function as subject "you", then "you remain" (etc.) can be
                                    rendered as _le him_, literally "you [are] continually" or "you're still
                                    [my pleasure, my pain or whatever]". See the entry KHIM in the Etymologies
                                    for the adverb _him_.

                                    - HKF
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