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Re: [elfscript] Tengwar Primer for child

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  • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
    ... that the ... Okay, first comments on Quenya names: Your tengwar transcriptions of thúle, númen, óre, rómen are written as if the long vowels were
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 5, 2003
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      Teithant Karyn:
      >I would appreciate any comments on the following
      >chart that I set up to work from as I design the individual
      >pages. I want to make sure
      that the
      >tengwar is correct for each name and meaning.
      >http://www.birchbarkstudio.com/TengwarPrimer.gif

      Okay, first comments on Quenya names:
      Your tengwar transcriptions of thúle, númen, óre, rómen are
      written as if the long vowels were short. The long vowel tehtar should
      be written over long carriers. Of course for thúle, númen and
      rómen, doubled curls could be used for long 'ó' and 'ú'. Also, you
      left hwesta sindariwa and úre off your list.

      You misspelled _silme_ both in Roman letters and in tengwar. Also, you
      left the acute accent of the 'o' in _rómen_.

      Personally, I would've used the later name aha ('rage') for the name of
      tengwa #11 rather than harma. Among other things, harma sounds close
      enough to hyarmen to cause misunderstanding. I speak from experience on
      this point!

      I think the first tengwa of _noldo_ should the tengwa noldo. Tolkien
      tells us the change _ñoldo_ > _noldo_ was a change of pronunciation;
      he gave no indication that it was accompanied by a change in spelling.
      As a note, according to Tolkien all the names of the tengwar contained
      the tengwar in question. The names of the tengwar harma, óre, anna,
      vilya, yanta and halla may have contained in tengwar in question, at
      least originally. I spell them with those tengwar.

      I will give comments on the spellings of English words in tengwar in a
      later post.

      Cuio mae, Danny.
    • Karyn Traphagen
      Thanks Danny...my replies to your comments are within brackets. ... From: d_daniel_andries@webtv.net [mailto:d_daniel_andries@webtv.net] Okay, first comments
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 5, 2003
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        Thanks Danny...my replies to your comments are within
        brackets.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: d_daniel_andries@...
        [mailto:d_daniel_andries@...]
        Okay, first comments on Quenya names:
        Your tengwar transcriptions of thúle, númen, óre, rómen are
        written as if the long vowels were short. The long vowel
        tehtar should
        be written over long carriers. Of course for thúle, númen
        and
        rómen, doubled curls could be used for long 'ó' and 'ú'.
        [[ Thanks, I have fixed this. ]]

        Also, you left hwesta sindariwa and úre off your list.
        [[ I caught this earlier today and added úre in. I purposely
        left hwesta sindarinwa off the worksheet, I'm including it
        in the primer ]]

        You misspelled _silme_ both in Roman letters and in tengwar.
        Also, you
        left the acute accent of the 'o' in _rómen_.

        [[ good eye, thanks ]]

        Personally, I would've used the later name aha ('rage') for
        the name of
        tengwa #11 rather than harma. Among other things, harma
        sounds close
        enough to hyarmen to cause misunderstanding. I speak from
        experience on
        this point!

        [[ since this is for my granddaughter, i decided I liked her
        learning something with the meaning "treasure" better than
        something with a meaning of "rage" ]]

        I think the first tengwa of _noldo_ should the tengwa noldo.
        Tolkien
        tells us the change _ñoldo_ > _noldo_ was a change of
        pronunciation;
        he gave no indication that it was accompanied by a change in
        spelling.
        As a note, according to Tolkien all the names of the tengwar
        contained
        the tengwar in question. The names of the tengwar harma,
        óre, anna,
        vilya, yanta and halla may have contained in tengwar in
        question, at
        least originally. I spell them with those tengwar.

        [[ i have tried to implement this suggestion. not sure if I
        have got halla and anna right. how do you spell them in your
        work? ]]

        I will give comments on the spellings of English words in
        tengwar in a
        later post.

        [[ I look forward to your next post. In the meantime, I've
        uploaded the primer worksheet with the changes so far. ]]

        Cuio mae, Danny.

        [[ Thanks! Karyn ]]



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      • mach
        ... Reminds me of my uncle teaching me some code when I was ten or eleven years old; I was very thrilled. Is that also her age? (I induce from your post that
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 6, 2003
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          >I am making a small tengwar primer book for my grandchild. The goal
          >is for her to learn the names of the tengwar (later she will learn
          >an English mode, so that we can write to each other).

          Reminds me of my uncle teaching me some code when I was ten or eleven years
          old; I was very thrilled. Is that also her age? (I induce from your post
          that she already knows how to spell.)



          book, hook: I'd recommend to these words with two vowel tehtar, the first
          placed on a short carrier (to keep it the same as your spelling of feather,
          mouth, air).

          treasure, breeze, tree: I'd recommend not to use an underdot for the first
          _e_ of these words, rather an acute on a short carrier (to keep it the same
          as your spelling of _feather, heart, heat_).

          treasure, breeze, region, tree: rather with rómen (to keep it the same as
          your spelling of _iron, bridge_) (alternatively, you could represent all _r_
          by óre).

          hollow, power: I'd recommend not to use úre but vala.

          one: rather with an underdot (like your spelling of _gate, name, bridge_).

          angelic, tongue: I'd recommend not to use nwalme for the _ng_ of this word
          but anga with a bar above.



          It would also be possible to use one and the same mode for both English and
          Quenya: A mode that uses calmatéma as a ch/j/sh/etc.-series, quessetéma as a
          k-series, and that places the vowel tehtar on the preceding tengwa (although
          for English, this is only attested in phonetic modes). Then, however, many
          letter names don't make much sense any more.


          suilaid
          mach
        • Karyn Traphagen
          Thanks, mach, for your comments, my replies are within brackets ... From: mach [mailto:machhezan@gmx.net] ... I was ten or eleven years old; I was very
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 7, 2003
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            Thanks, mach, for your comments, my replies are within
            brackets

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mach [mailto:machhezan@...]

            ... I was ten or eleven years
            old; I was very thrilled. Is that also her age? (I induce
            from your post
            that she already knows how to spell.)
            [[She is younger, she is just learning the Roman alphabet
            now, and I thought it would be a good to learn the Tengwar
            too. It is all like a game to her right now.]]


            book, hook: I'd recommend to these words with two vowel
            tehtar, the first
            placed on a short carrier (to keep it the same as your
            spelling of feather,
            mouth, air).

            treasure, breeze, tree: I'd recommend not to use an underdot
            for the first
            _e_ of these words, rather an acute on a short carrier (to
            keep it the same
            as your spelling of _feather, heart, heat_).

            treasure, breeze, region, tree: rather with rómen (to keep
            it the same as
            your spelling of _iron, bridge_) (alternatively, you could
            represent all _r_
            by óre).

            hollow, power: I'd recommend not to use úre but vala.

            one: rather with an underdot (like your spelling of _gate,
            name, bridge_).

            [ [I have applied these suggestions. A few were what I
            originally intended and made errors. ]]

            angelic, tongue: I'd recommend not to use nwalme for the
            _ng_ of this word
            but anga with a bar above.

            [[ I agree for angelic, but not for tongue. For me, the ng
            is pronounced very different in these words ]]

            I am getting closer. I also changed the ending so that
            _spider's_ is now _8q2%6+R_ I have learned that I must
            really not rush to post, but check more carefully first
            before asking for everyone's help. I have redone my
            worksheet and uploaded it to:
            www.birchbarkstudio.com/TengwarPrimer.gif

            Any other comments? (Danny?)
            Karyn





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