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Translation Help Please!

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  • maelkorin
    I m hoping for help to translate something into Quenya. Can anyone help? I want to translate Family, old friends & good times. I tried and got Nossë
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
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      I'm hoping for help to translate something into Quenya.

      Can anyone help?

      I want to translate "Family, old friends & good times."

      I tried and got "Nossë lingenwa meldor arlúëa" with this thinking:

      Nossë (Kindred/Family)
      Lingenwa (Old)
      Meldor (Friends)
      ar- (high / noble / revered)
      lú (a time / occasion)
      -ëa (plural)

      Is this right?
    • Helge K. Fauskanger
      ... Many can help. Not all of them bother, though. ... You mean _linyenwa_, not _lingenwa_ (Etym, entry YEN). It means having many years . There is, however,
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 7, 2003
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        > I'm hoping for help to translate something into Quenya.
        > Can anyone help?

        Many can help. Not all of them bother, though.

        > I want to translate "Family, old friends & good times."
        > I tried and got "Nossë lingenwa meldor arlúëa"

        You mean _linyenwa_, not _lingenwa_ (Etym, entry YEN). It means "having
        many years". There is, however, the problem that Tolkien later redefined
        the meaning of Quenya _yén_: It used to mean simply "year", but later he
        made this the word for an Elvish "century" of 144 solar years (144 being
        the first three-digit number in Elvish duodecimal counting). After this
        revision, only REALLY old friends can be described with the adjective
        _linyenwa_: They would have been around for many centuries!

        For "old friends" you may say _voronwe meldor_ (enduring/long-lasting
        friends).

        "Good times" = _márë lúmi_? (May also mean "good hours".)

        Quenya can hardly have the cluster _rl_.

        > -ëa (plural)

        There is no plural ending -ëa in Quenya.

        _Nossë, voronwë meldor ar márë lúmi_, that is my suggestion.

        - HKF
      • laurifindil
        ... Many??? Did not know some many spoke fluently Quenya and were raised in that language. ... May I suggest to correct this into that is my suggestion
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 10, 2003
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
          <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
          > > I'm hoping for help to translate something into Quenya.
          > > Can anyone help?
          >
          > Many can help. Not all of them bother, though.
          >

          Many???

          Did not know some many spoke fluently Quenya and were raised in that
          language.

          <snip>


          > _Nossë, voronwë meldor ar márë lúmi_, that is my suggestion.

          May I suggest to correct this into "that is my suggestion in my own
          private Neo-Quenya language."

          _ar márë lúmi_ is pure Neo-Quenya ; made according to the beleif that
          this language is a "code-language" from English... a word for word
          translation, so to speak.

          All those pretending to be fluent in Quenya (e.g. saying they can do
          "translation" just by looking in their private "palantír") - and you
          have to be mighty fluent in language in order to translate something in
          it - are juts playing fools ; trying to boast their ego in front of a
          audience unaware of the difficulties of simply understanding Q(u)enya
          or any other Tolkien's Languages.
        • Karyn Traphagen
          Thanks to all who have helped me with corrections for my children s Tengwar Primer. Just a few lingering questions: Danny suggested I use each tengwa in the
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 10, 2003
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            Thanks to all who have helped me with corrections for my
            children's Tengwar Primer. Just a few lingering questions:

            Danny suggested I use each tengwa in the spelling of its
            name (as Tolkien noted). How would you spell _anna_ using
            the tengwa anna? How would you spell _yanta_ using the
            tengwa yanta?

            Thanks, Karyn
          • Arden R. Smith
            ... Short answer: You don t. Long answer: You can use anna in place of the short carrier, which thus indicates that the word originally began with a consonant
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 10, 2003
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              Karyn Traphagen wrote:

              >Danny suggested I use each tengwa in the spelling of its
              >name (as Tolkien noted). How would you spell _anna_ using
              >the tengwa anna? How would you spell _yanta_ using the
              >tengwa yanta?

              Short answer: You don't.

              Long answer:

              You can use anna in place of the short carrier, which thus indicates
              that the word originally began with a consonant that has disappeared
              (*/g/ > */3/ > nil). One problem with this is that according to
              published evidence (such as "The Etymologies") this word never began
              with a consonant. Tolkien's thoughts about the etymology of this
              word did change, however; see my posts from 6 and 8 Jun 2002,
              Subject: Re: [elfscript] the use of tengwa 'anna'. Another problem
              is that if you spell _anna_ with initial anna, then you should also
              spell certain other tengwa-names (e.g. _alda_ and _ampa_) with
              initial anna, since these words by all accounts originally began with
              Quendian */g/.

              Yanta is even more of a problem. It's a relic of an older system in
              which /y/ was represented by yanta in all positions. [See my post
              from 3 Jun 2002, Subject: [elfscript] úr (e) and yanta (was: Re:
              úr >> úre ).] In our familiar mode for Quenya, however, yanta has a
              different function, as you are clearly aware. If you were to spell
              _yanta_ using the letter yanta instead of anna+y-tehta, you would of
              course wind up with *_ainta_. The only way to get around this would
              be to use yanta exclusively for /y/ and to spell diphthongs ending in
              /i/ using the tehta for /i/. But then you're no longer using
              standard spellings, and your primer fails in its purpose....

              In the wonderful word of Elvish scripts, nothing is "as easy as ABC"!

              --
              *********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
              --Elvish proverb
              *********************************************************************
            • mach
              ... Does this mean that the first samples of tengwar are in English, or does it just mean it were non-Feanorian elvish modes? ... So this isn t just secondary
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 12, 2003
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                Arden R. Smith wrote:
                > As you noted, yanta is not present in the earliest full writing modes
                > for English (ca. 1931). It is, however, present in the earliest
                > Feanorian modes for Qenya (unpublished), some of which are full
                > writing modes, but these examples are later, dating from the late
                > 1930s.

                Does this mean that the first samples of tengwar are in English, or does it
                just mean it were non-Feanorian elvish modes?

                > It is also worth noting that in the late 1930s Tolkien regarded yanta
                > as having been derived from the Rúmilian symbol for /y/, which it in
                > fact resembles

                So this isn't just secondary theory but attested (tough unpublished).

                suilaid
                mach
              • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
                ... No? Each full name was an actual word in Quenya that contained the letter in question. I discern no ambiguity. At the time Tolkien wrote Appendix E, he
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 12, 2003
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                  Teithant Arden R. Smith:
                  >Karyn Traphagen wrote:
                  > >Danny suggested I use each tengwa in the spelling of its
                  > >name (as Tolkien noted). How would you spell _anna_ using
                  > >the tengwa anna? How would you spell _yanta_ using the
                  > >tengwa yanta?
                  >Short answer:  You don't.

                  No? "Each 'full name' was an actual word in Quenya that contained the
                  letter in question." I discern no ambiguity. At the time Tolkien wrote
                  Appendix E, he apparently intended the name of the tengwa anna to be
                  spelt with the tengwa anna, yanta to be spelt with yanta, etc. These
                  spellings might well be outdated and at variance with Third Age Quenya
                  orthography, but preserved to follow the rule concerning the names of
                  the tengwar containing those tengwar. I understand the problem of
                  writing _yanta_ with the tengwa yanta, however as there is no Q word
                  _**ainta_ AFAIK, I think that confusion would not be an issue with
                  someone familiar with the antiquated spelling conventions associated
                  with the names of the tengwar. Those spellings would most likely be used
                  only when spelling the tengwar names, not when spelling the associated
                  word, e.g. _óre_ as the name of the tengwa would be spelt with óre,
                  but when _óre_ is used as 'heart' it would be spelt with rómen in
                  accordance with the orthographical rules we observe in 'Namárie'. Of
                  course I could be wrong, but I tend to follow the clues provided by
                  Tolkien in his published works. He changed his mind often, but the
                  passage in Appendix E concerning the names of the tengwar has been my
                  guide in spelling those names. I feel he meant what he wrote.

                  Cuio mae, Danny.
                • Arden R. Smith
                  ... It depends on what you mean by tengwar . If you are talking about modes that are compatible with the Feanorian system as published, then the earliest
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 12, 2003
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                    Mach Hezan wrote:

                    >Does this mean that the first samples of tengwar are in English, or does it
                    >just mean it were non-Feanorian elvish modes?

                    It depends on what you mean by "tengwar". If you are talking about
                    modes that are compatible with the Feanorian system as published,
                    then the earliest samples (or at least the earliest samples that I
                    have seen) are modes for English. There are, however, Qenya and
                    Noldorin applications of earlier systems, such as Rúmilian and
                    Valmaric (examples in _Parma Eldalamberon_ #13). It appears that
                    Rúmilian, the earliest of the Elvish alphabets (1919), was originally
                    devised for the representation of English; see Carpenter's statement
                    about the Alphabet of Rúmil in _Tolkien: A Biography_ (p. 100 in the
                    original hardback edition).

                    > > It is also worth noting that in the late 1930s Tolkien regarded yanta
                    >> as having been derived from the Rúmilian symbol for /y/, which it in
                    >> fact resembles
                    >
                    >So this isn't just secondary theory but attested (tough unpublished).

                    Tolkien's statement of the derivation of yanta from the Rúmilian /y/
                    has been published, in _Parma Eldalamberon_ #13, p. 88. The letter
                    is glossed as _ya_ in the published excerpt, but the name _yanta_ is
                    in fact applied to it elsewhere in the same source document, an essay
                    entitled "The Feanorian Alphabet."

                    --
                    *********************************************************************
                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                    Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                    --Elvish proverb
                    *********************************************************************
                  • machhezan
                    ... I ll have to find someone willing to give me a copy of that... though I fear that in my country (Switzerland) nobody has it. Didn t the publishers announce
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 13, 2003
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                      Arden R. Smith wrote:
                      > Tolkien's statement of the derivation of yanta from the Rúmilian /y/
                      > has been published, in _Parma Eldalamberon_ #13, p. 88.

                      I'll have to find someone willing to give me a copy of that... though
                      I fear that in my country (Switzerland) nobody has it.

                      Didn't the publishers announce they would reprint it?

                      suilaid
                      mach
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... language. No, but if you need such qualifications to put together even a single phrase in acceptable Quenya, then not even Tolkien s own compositions are
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 13, 2003
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                        Laurifindil (i.e. Ed) wrote:

                        > Did not know some many spoke fluently Quenya and were raised in that
                        language.

                        No, but if you need such qualifications to put together even a single
                        phrase in acceptable Quenya, then not even Tolkien's own compositions are
                        worth our attention.

                        I wrote:

                        > _Nossë, voronwë meldor ar márë lúmi_, that is my suggestion.

                        Laurifindil responded:

                        > May I suggest to correct this into "that is my suggestion in my own
                        private Neo-Quenya language."

                        There is not a single neologism here. The only inflections involved are the
                        plural endings -r and -i and the rule that adjectives in -a have plural
                        forms in -e (for older -ai). I do not believe any of these are particularly
                        controversial, to say the least.

                        > _ar márë lúmi_ is pure Neo-Quenya ; made according to the beleif that
                        this language is a "code-language" from English... a word for word
                        translation, so to speak.

                        Ignoring the conjunction, this phrase only involves the simple grammatical
                        rule that an adjectival attribute can be placed in front of the noun it
                        describes, as in _linte yuldar_ "swift draughts" in Namárie. Yes, a similar
                        word order does work in English as well, but that does not necessarily make
                        it suspect in Quenya, does it? Especially when we have a Tolkien-made
                        example to guide us?

                        Possibly another word than _mára_ "good" could be used, though. One could
                        speak of _alyë lúmi_, "prosperous/rich/abundant/blessed times".

                        > All those pretending to be fluent in Quenya...are juts playing fools ;
                        trying to boast their ego in front of a[n] audience unaware of the
                        difficulties of simply understanding Q(u)enya or any other Tolkien's
                        Languages.

                        I do not believe I have claimed to be fluent in Quenya; I just answered a
                        question asked by an Elfscript subscriber to the best of my ability. And a
                        simple string of words like "Family, old friends and good times" hardly
                        includes anything terribly exotic in terms of syntax or grammar. If by
                        "Neo-Quenya" Ed means a language that has been so watered down by
                        neologisms and extra-Tolkienian grammatical features that it has lost
                        contact with the "real" Quenya in Tolkien's own writings, then I cannot see
                        that we have quite reached that point in the case before us.

                        - HKF
                      • Benct Philip Jonsson
                        ... I agree with you mostly, but I think that the Namárie mode is a Gondorean (i.e. Mannish, i.e. corrupted) mode. IMHO Elves even of the Late Third Age may
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 13, 2003
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                          Danny wrote:

                          >No? "Each 'full name' was an actual word in Quenya that contained the
                          >letter in question." I discern no ambiguity. At the time Tolkien wrote
                          >Appendix E, he apparently intended the name of the tengwa anna to be
                          >spelt with the tengwa anna, yanta to be spelt with yanta, etc. These
                          >spellings might well be outdated and at variance with Third Age Quenya
                          >orthography, but preserved to follow the rule concerning the names of
                          >the tengwar containing those tengwar. I understand the problem of
                          >writing _yanta_ with the tengwa yanta, however as there is no Q word
                          >_**ainta_ AFAIK, I think that confusion would not be an issue with
                          >someone familiar with the antiquated spelling conventions associated
                          >with the names of the tengwar. Those spellings would most likely be used
                          >only when spelling the tengwar names, not when spelling the associated
                          >word, e.g. _óre_ as the name of the tengwa would be spelt with óre,
                          >but when _óre_ is used as 'heart' it would be spelt with rómen in
                          >accordance with the orthographical rules we observe in 'Namárie'. Of
                          >course I could be wrong, but I tend to follow the clues provided by
                          >Tolkien in his published works. He changed his mind often, but the
                          >passage in Appendix E concerning the names of the tengwar has been my
                          >guide in spelling those names. I feel he meant what he wrote.
                          >
                          >Cuio mae, Danny.

                          I agree with you mostly, but I think that the
                          "Namárie" mode is a Gondorean (i.e. Mannish, i.e.
                          corrupted) mode. IMHO Elves even of the
                          Late Third Age may have used other modes, e.g.
                          with Yanta+double-dots for /j/ _y_, Aha for /h/
                          and Hyarmen for /hj/ _hy_ etc.


                          /BP 8^)
                          --
                          B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
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                        • Arden R. Smith
                          ... It will be reprinted eventually. It was decided that a reprint of _Parma_ #12 was a higher priority than a reprint of #13, since it had been out of print
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 15, 2003
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                            Mach Hezan wrote re _Parma Eldalamberon_ #13:

                            >Didn't the publishers announce they would reprint it?

                            It will be reprinted eventually. It was decided that a reprint of
                            _Parma_ #12 was a higher priority than a reprint of #13, since it had
                            been out of print longer. _Parma_ #12 was thus reprinted this past
                            July, having been out of print for a few years. If I'm not mistaken,
                            #13 has been unavailable for less than a year.

                            Bear in mind that a print-run of an issue of _Parma Eldalamberon_
                            requires a significant financial investment at the outset. Though
                            this money is recouped rather soon in the case of a first-run
                            _Parma_, reprints don't sell as quickly, and a lot of money (and
                            storage space) can get tied up in unsold back-issues.

                            --
                            *********************************************************************
                            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                            --Elvish proverb
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