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December 16th Movie Trilogy (Help!)

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  • eruvande81
    I need help with a translation... I work at a movie theatre, and we will be playing the trilogy of movies on December 16th. I have been asked to design a
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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      I need help with a translation...

      I work at a movie theatre, and we will be playing the trilogy of
      movies on December 16th. I have been asked to design a t-shirt for
      the people coming to see the trilogy. I would like to put

      The Trilogy: I saw it first.

      on the back of the t-shirts... in some kind of elfscript. Can anyone
      help me with a translation and the elfscript for this? I would be
      hugely grateful and would be happy to send you some free t-shirts...

      (Also, if the word 'trilogy' does not exist in one of the elvish
      languages, then 'The Three: I saw it first' would be fine.)
    • Chris Ruzin
      I m still studying Sindarin, so you ll want to get some others feedback as well. I ve attached a GIF file with the Tengwar transcription too. The Trilogy: I
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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        I'm still studying Sindarin, so you'll want to get some others'
        feedback as well. I've attached a GIF file with the Tengwar
        transcription too.

        The Trilogy: I saw it first

        _i Neled:tirnen cha erui_ "The Three: I saw it first"


        ----------



        The Tengwar will change if the translation is incorrect. I'm
        interested to see if I got this translation close.

        Chris

        --
        Chris Ruzin
        www.chrisruzin.net

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chris Ruzin
        ... Argh! I forgot that Yahoo! removes the images. If the translation is correct, and you want the Tengwar, just email me and I ll send the GIF to you. I ll
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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          On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 04:47 PM, Chris Ruzin wrote:

          > I've attached a GIF file with the Tengwar transcription too.

          Argh! I forgot that Yahoo! removes the images. If the translation is
          correct, and you want the Tengwar, just email me and I'll send the GIF
          to you. I'll post it on the Web so others can doublecheck it too.

          Chris

          --
          Chris Ruzin
          www.chrisruzin.net

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Helge K. Fauskanger
          ... Hm, please don t hyper-lenit the pronoun _ha_ it , already lenited since it is derived from a root in S-. Moreover, Movie Sindarin (which is probably the
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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            > The Trilogy: I saw it first
            >
            > _i Neled:tirnen cha erui_ "The Three: I saw it first"

            Hm, please don't hyper-lenit the pronoun _ha_ "it", already lenited since
            it is derived from a root in S-.

            Moreover, Movie Sindarin (which is probably the most relevant language
            here) uses *_han_ when "it" appears as object. It occurs already in
            Galadriel's whisperings at the very beginning of Fellowship, e.g. _HAN
            noston ne 'wilith_ "I smell IT in the air".

            _Minui_ is probably a better word for _erui_ here (though Movie Sindarin in
            one place does have _erui_ where _minui_ would probably be better!)

            Possibly, "I watched" should be *_tirnin_ rather than *_tirnen_ (and
            conceivably there are yet other possibilities...*_idiren_, anyone?)

            And then there is the question of whether the word for "three" is to be
            _neled(h)_ or _nêl_; the latter turned up in a recent VT (recent as VTs go,
            of course). Maybe we can do a better job in Neo-Quenya: _I Nelde: Tirnenyet
            minyave_ (?)

            Or, since Tolkien used _Neldie_ for "Trinity", maybe it can cover "trilogy"
            as well? Etymologically it just refers to something made up of three parts.

            - HKF
          • Chris Ruzin
            ... Like I said, I m still learning. Thanks for the pointer here. So would a better Sindarin translation be _I Neldie: Tirnin han manui_? Chris -- Chris Ruzin
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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              On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 07:18 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

              > > The Trilogy: I saw it first
              > >
              > > _i Neled:tirnen cha erui_ "The Three: I saw it first"
              >
              > Hm, please don't hyper-lenit the pronoun _ha_ "it", already lenited
              > since
              > it is derived from a root in S-

              Like I said, I'm still learning. Thanks for the pointer here.

              So would a better Sindarin translation be _I Neldie: Tirnin han manui_?

              Chris

              --
              Chris Ruzin
              www.chrisruzin.net
            • Chris Ruzin
              ... Oops. Make that _minui_. -- Chris Ruzin www.chrisruzin.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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                On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 09:21 PM, Chris Ruzin wrote:
                > manui_?

                Oops. Make that _minui_.

                --
                Chris Ruzin
                www.chrisruzin.net

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • elimloth
                ... wrote: [...] ... to be ... I suppose, but then the T-shirt could be misinterpreted as: The Tooth: I saw it first. Elimloth
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                  <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                  [...]
                  > And then there is the question of whether the word for "three" is
                  to be
                  > _neled(h)_ or _nêl_; the latter turned up in a recent VT

                  I suppose, but then the T-shirt could be misinterpreted as:

                  The Tooth: I saw it first.

                  Elimloth
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  ... There is no evidence supporting any of these three proposed past-tense formations for Sindarin. The Noldorin singular past tense form of the verb
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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                    On Oct 14, 2003, at 8:18 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

                    > Possibly, "I watched" should be *_tirnin_ rather than *_tirnen_ (and
                    > conceivably there are yet other possibilities...*_idiren_, anyone?)

                    There is no evidence supporting any of these three proposed past-tense
                    formations for Sindarin.

                    The Noldorin singular past tense form of the verb _tiri-_/_tiria-_ is
                    given as the weak formation _tiriant_ (_Etymologies_ s.v. TIR-). From
                    this we can see that the Noldorin pa.t. form was built directly on the
                    stem _tiri-_/_tiria-_. So, if Noldorin forms are to be taken as
                    supplying otherwise unattested Sindarin forms, the first-person
                    singular pa.t. form of this verb in Sindarin would presumably be
                    *_tirin_ or *_tirion_ (cf. _linnon_ 'I sing', III:354; _linnathon_ 'I
                    will sing' and _nallon_ 'I cry', R:72; where the element _-on_ of these
                    1st sg. forms is presumably derived from earlier *_â-n-_, with S _o_ <
                    earlier long *_â_).

                    Helge's proposal *_tirnin_ appears to assume a weak pa.t. stem
                    *_tirn-_, which he presumably has isolated from the Noldorin name
                    _Dalath Dirnen_ 'Guarded Plain' (_Etymologies_ s.v. TIR-). But note
                    that this Noldorin name appears in the same source, indeed in the same
                    entry, as the only attested Noldorin pa.t. form of the verb, _tiriant_.
                    Thus, contrary to supporting a theory that the pa.t. stem of the verb
                    derived from TIR- is the unattested *_tirn_, the underlying pp.
                    *_tirnen_ 'guarded' must be explained in relation to the attested,
                    coexistent stems _tiri-__tiria-_ and pa.t. form _tiriant_. The pp.
                    *_tirnen_ is thus perhaps to be understood as derived by syncope from
                    *_tiri-nen_, again suggesting a Noldorin 1st sg. pa.t. form *_tirin_.

                    Helge's other proposal, *_idiren_, presumably is formed on analogy with
                    S _agor_ (XI:415), which Tolkien derives from primitive *_akâra_ (the
                    circumflex here represents a macron in the published text) and
                    describes as characterized by "the 'augment', or reduplicated
                    base-vowel, and the long stem-vowel" (thus explaining the appearance of
                    S _o_ for earlier long *_â_; note too the apparent stem-vowel *_-a_,
                    _not_ *_-e_). There is, of course, no evidence that any Sindarin verb
                    derived from TIR- employs this pa.t. formation; but I would point out
                    that if this formation mechanism is to be applied, the result is not
                    Helge's *_idire-_, but instead *_idíra-_ < *_itîra_.


                    --
                    =============================================
                    Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                    ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                    Ars longa, vita brevis.
                    The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                    "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                    a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... Well, that doesn t work, does it? Forgot to mark the past tense! (Must not post so late...) To finish my thought correctly: since we are dealing, in
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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                      On Oct 15, 2003, at 12:42 AM, I wrote:

                      > the first-person singular pa.t. form of this verb in Sindarin would
                      > presumably be *_tirin_ or *_tirion_ (cf. _linnon_ 'I sing', III:354;
                      > _linnathon_ 'I will sing' and _nallon_ 'I cry', R:72; where the
                      > element _-on_ of these 1st sg. forms is presumably derived from
                      > earlier *_â-n-_, with S _o_ < earlier long *_â_).

                      Well, that doesn't work, does it? Forgot to mark the past tense! (Must
                      not post so late...) To finish my thought correctly: since we are
                      dealing, in Noldorin _tiri-_/_tiria-_, sg. pa.t. _tiriant_, with a
                      derived verb, the 1st sg. pa.t. form might follow the pattern suggested
                      by such verbs in Quenya and add the weak pa.t. marker *_-ne_ (e.g. Q
                      _ulya-_ 'pour', pa.t. _ulyane_, _Etym._ s.v. ULU-; Q _ortane_; etc.) --
                      though it must be noted that there is no evidence for this particular
                      weak pa.t. formation in the attested corpus of Sindarin verbs -- to
                      produce something like *_tirinen_/*_tirianen_ (or *_tirionen_,
                      depending on whether the original long *_â-_ of the derivative element
                      *_-yâ-_ is shortened before the weak pa.t. ending *_-nê_). On the other
                      hand, it might instead be that the Noldorin and Sindarin pa.t. forms
                      are analogical throughout the pa.t. paradigm, based upon the sg. form
                      _tiriant_ (itself apparently an analogical form; see my post to the
                      Lambengolmor list of July 11, 2003, no. 464:
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/464>), in which
                      case the 1st sg. pa.t. form might be something like *_tiriannen_ (the
                      form _drammen_, untranslated but possibly to be understood as
                      _dramme-n_ *'I beat, I hewed', cognate with pa.t. †_dramp_ < DARÁM-,
                      suggests this possibility; but again, we have no firm evidence of such
                      personal pa.t. formations in Noldorin or Sindarin).

                      I also need to revisit my suggestion for relating the Noldorin p.p.
                      *_tirnen_ 'guarded' to the derived verb stems _tiri-_/_tiria-_ and the
                      sg. pa.t. _tiriant_, all attested in the same entry:

                      > *_tirnen_ is thus perhaps to be understood as derived by syncope from
                      > *_tiri-nen_

                      since that leaves the first _-n_ unexplained. On further reflection, I
                      think it is better to instead view N *_tirnen_ as simply an analogical
                      formation based on the very frequent occurrence of p.ps. in _-nen_
                      among both basic and derived verbs in Noldorin, e.g. N. _dant-_ 'to
                      fall', _dannen_ 'fallen' < DAT-, DANT-; N _presto_ 'to affect, trouble,
                      disturb', _prestannen_ 'affected' < PERES-; etc. In any event, whatever
                      the explanation of the Noldorin p.p. *_tirnen_, its co-attestation with
                      N sg. pa.t. _tiriant_ demonstrates that it cannot simply be assumed or
                      asserted to be based upon a pa.t. stem *_tirn-_. Nor, above all, can we
                      use such an assumption or assertion as an excuse to ignore the fact
                      that the _attested_ verb, _tiri-_/_tiria-_ is _derived_.

                      --
                      =============================================
                      Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                      ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                      Ars longa, vita brevis.
                      The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                      "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                      a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                    • eruvande81
                      So what do we think the final translation should be? (Thanks so much for all of your help.)
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 15, 2003
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                        So what do we think the final translation should be? (Thanks so much
                        for all of your help.)
                      • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
                        ... I ll give my suggestion, but first a question: why the trilogy or the three ? I would suggest _Hîr i-Chorvath: han tiriannen minui._ ( Lord of the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 15, 2003
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                          Teithant Eruvande81:
                          >The Trilogy: I saw it first.

                          >(Also, if the word 'trilogy' does not exist in one of the
                          >elvish languages, then 'The Three: I saw it first'
                          >would be fine.)

                          I'll give my suggestion, but first a question: why 'the trilogy' or 'the
                          three'? I would suggest _Hîr i-Chorvath: han tiriannen minui._ ('Lord
                          of the Rings: I saw it first.') Written in the KLIII tengwar mode, it
                          looks more impressive than _i-neled_, _i-neledh_ or i-nêl, plus it
                          gives the title of the trilogy.

                          Cuio mae, Danny.
                        • Carl F. Hostetter
                          ... You could opt to follow the sole certain, attested example we have in Sindarin of a past-tense verb with 1st sg. subject: _Im ... echant_ I ... made .
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 15, 2003
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                            On Oct 15, 2003, at 1:24 PM, eruvande81 wrote:

                            > So what do we think the final translation should be? (Thanks so much
                            > for all of your help.)

                            You could opt to follow the sole certain, attested example we have in
                            Sindarin of a past-tense verb with 1st sg. subject: _Im ... echant_ 'I
                            ... made'. Even if this is regarded as a specifically emphatic
                            formation, such would not be entirely inappropriate to the phrase being
                            translated. So: *_Im tiriant_ 'I watched' (which has the further
                            advantage of using the only attested form of a Noldorin pa.t. verb
                            derived from TIR-).

                            Personally, though, I wouldn't use a derivative of TIR-: consider
                            Tolkien's note re: the root _ken-_ 'see, perceive, note', specifically
                            on its derivative: "_kenda-_ intensive watch, sc. not 'guard' but
                            observe for some time (to gain information etc.). Often used for
                            'reading'" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 41 p. 5). This very strongly argues that N
                            _tiri-_/_tiria-_ *'watch, guard' would _not_ be used of such activity
                            as watching a movie or play (the desired sense), but rather a cognate
                            of _kenda-_; so perhaps *_Im cennant_ 'I watched'?


                            --
                            =============================================
                            Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                            ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                            Ars longa, vita brevis.
                            The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                            "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                            a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                          • elimloth
                            d_daniel_andries@w... wrote: [...] I would suggest _Hîr i-Chorvath: han tiriannen minui._ ... tengwar mode, [...] Like so:
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 15, 2003
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                              d_daniel_andries@w... wrote:
                              [...] I would suggest _Hîr i-Chorvath: han tiriannen minui._
                              > ('Lord of the Rings: I saw it first.') Written in the KLIII
                              tengwar mode, [...]

                              Like so: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/LOTRtshirt.PNG

                              Elimloth
                            • Helge K. Fauskanger
                              ... given as the weak formation _tiriant_ (_Etymologies_ s.v. TIR-). From this we can see that the Noldorin pa.t. form was built directly on the stem
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 18, 2003
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                                Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                                > The Noldorin singular past tense form of the verb _tiri-_/_tiria-_ is
                                given as the weak formation _tiriant_ (_Etymologies_ s.v. TIR-). From this
                                we can see that the Noldorin pa.t. form was built directly on the stem
                                _tiri-_/_tiria-_.

                                I see no evidence for a stem "tiri-". The actual wording in the entry TIR
                                is: "N _tiri_ or _tirio_, pa.t. _tiriant_." The form _tirio_ is clearly an
                                infinitive in _-o_, very well attested in Etym. This suggests that _tiri_
                                occurring before it is also an infinitive, with exactly the same infinitive
                                ending as in (say) _gedi_ "[to] catch" vs. the simple consonant stem _gad-_
                                (both are mentioned in the entry GAT). _Tiri_ would likewise be the
                                infinitive of a consonant stem _tir-_; the final _-i_ of _tiri_ is no part
                                of the verbal stem, but merely the infinitive ending.

                                The past tense _tiriant_ connects with the immediately preceding infinitive
                                form _tirio_; it is not necessarily intended as the pa.t. of the synonym
                                _tiri_ as well. _Tiriant_, as I see it, is the regular past tense of a
                                derived (A-stem) verb *_tiria-_, the regular infinitive of which (at least
                                in Noldorin) is the form provided: _tirio_. On the other hand, _tiri_ is
                                the regular infinitive of a consonant stem, and its past tense is not
                                given. I will argue that it is most likely *_tirn_, directly corresponding
                                to Quenya _tirne_ mentioned in the same entry, and also indirectly attested
                                in the passive participle _tirnen_ (lenited _dirnen_) "watched". Other
                                examples show that passive participles are formed by adding _-en_ to a past
                                tense form, e.g. the form _dolen_ "hidden" as the "p.p." (past/passive
                                participle) corresponding to the past tense form _daul_ "hid" (entry DUL;
                                the diphthong _au_ regularly becomes _o_ in a polysyllabic word).

                                CFH:

                                > Helge's proposal *_tirnin_ appears to assume a weak pa.t. stem *_tirn-_,
                                which he presumably has isolated from the Noldorin name _Dalath Dirnen_
                                'Guarded Plain' (_Etymologies_ s.v. TIR-). But note that this Noldorin name
                                appears in the same source, indeed in the same entry, as the only attested
                                Noldorin pa.t. form of the verb, _tiriant_. Thus, contrary to supporting a
                                theory that the pa.t. stem of the verb derived from TIR- is the unattested
                                *_tirn_, the underlying pp. *_tirnen_ 'guarded' must be explained in
                                relation to the attested, coexistent stems _tiri-__tiria-_ and pa.t. form
                                _tiriant_.

                                CFH still confuses the infinitive form _tiri_ with a longer "stem"
                                **_tiri-_, even supplying a hyphen Tolkien did not include, and jumps to
                                the conclusion that _tiriant_ is the past tense of _tiri_ as well as
                                _tirio_. In no way is this an obvious and inevitable interpretation of what
                                Tolkien actually wrote. The past tense _tiriant_ is mentioned only after
                                _tirio_.

                                > The pp. *_tirnen_ is thus perhaps to be understood as derived by syncope
                                from *_tiri-nen_, again suggesting a Noldorin 1st sg. pa.t. form *_tirin_.

                                Such a "pa.t." form would be awfully easy to confuse with a PRESENT-TENSE
                                (or aorist?) form like _ú-chebin_ "I do not keep", wouldn't it? No,
                                _tirnen_ would rather come from *_tir-nê-nâ_, i.e. consonant stem _tir-_ +
                                old past tense marker _-nê_ + old participial ending _-nâ_. Compare _tirne_
                                as the Quenya past tense (< *_tir-nê). A "past participle" indeed; the
                                early Lindar apparently had this great idea that past participles could be
                                formed by adding _-nâ_ to past-tense forms. Compare _thoren_ as the "pp."
                                of a verb "fence"; Tolkien explicitly derived it from _thaurênâ_, which
                                would be the past tense *_thaurê_ "fenced" (formed by A-infixion from the
                                root THUR, compare the pa.t. _daul_ vs. the root DUL) + the participial
                                ending _-nâ_.

                                The form **_tiri-nen_ > _tirnen_ once again reflects CFH's strange desire
                                to turn the simple infinitive marker seen at the end of _tiri_ into an
                                integral part of the verbal stem, even if he must postulate a syncope to
                                get rid of it in the attested p.p. _tirnen_.

                                > Helge's other proposal, *_idiren_, presumably is formed on analogy with S
                                _agor_ (XI:415),

                                Correct so far...

                                > which Tolkien derives from primitive *_akâra_ (the circumflex here
                                represents a macron in the published text) and describes as characterized
                                by "the 'augment', or reduplicated base-vowel, and the long stem-vowel"
                                (thus explaining the appearance of S _o_ for earlier long *_â_; note too
                                the apparent stem-vowel *_-a_, _not_ *_-e_). There is, of course, no
                                evidence that any Sindarin verb derived from TIR- employs this pa.t.
                                formation; but I would point out that if this formation mechanism is to be
                                applied, the result is not Helge's *_idire-_, but instead *_idíra-_ <
                                *_itîra_.

                                As for the final vowel before the pronominal ending, CFH surely recalls the
                                Turin Wrapper form _agorech_ instead of **_agorach_ -- which his reasoning
                                above would lead us to expect. For all we know, -e- may have become a
                                universal connecting vowel before pronominal suffixes in this kind of past
                                tense, perhaps by analogy with such forms as _onen_ "I gave" or _*drammen_
                                "I hewed" (where this connecting vowel is historically justified).

                                In the form _akâra_, even the FINAL -a may be an echo of the stem-vowel
                                (some kind of ómataina added to the root KAR). If the stem TIR formed its
                                past tense by the same pattern, maybe we would see *_itîri_ as the
                                primitive form?

                                Just like the long vowel of _akâra_ has been shortened in _agor_ (where _â_
                                became _au_ and then _o_), it may be assumed that *_itîr-_ would produce
                                *_idir_ rather than *_idír_, though the long vowel would perhaps still
                                persist at the stage sometimes called Middle Sindarin (a post-Tolkien
                                term).

                                CFH returns to _tirnen_ in a later letter:

                                > On further reflection, I think it is better to instead view N *_tirnen_
                                as simply an analogical formation based on the very frequent occurrence of
                                p.ps. in _-nen_ among both basic and derived verbs in Noldorin, e.g. N.
                                _dant-_ 'to fall', _dannen_ 'fallen' < DAT-, DANT-; N _presto_ 'to affect,
                                trouble, disturb', _prestannen_ 'affected' < PERES-; etc.

                                On still further reflection, CFH may reach the insight that _prestannen_ is
                                the past tense *_prestant_ "disturbed, affected" + the actual past
                                participle marker _-en_ (the longer form -nen only occurs incidentally, so
                                to speak, where there happens to be or arise an -n- before this shorter
                                ending). In_prestannen_, we have intervocalic _nt_ becoming _nn_, a regular
                                development. _Dannen_ "fallen" may suggest that the past tense "fell" is
                                *_dant_, formed by nasal infixion from the root DAT; again we have
                                intervocalic nt > nn.

                                The past participle marker _-en_ historically evolves from _-e_ (the vowel
                                all past tense-forms originally seem to have ended in, still so in Quenya)
                                + the participial ending _-nâ_, worn down to _-n_ in Noldorin/Sindarin. In
                                many cases, the older past tense marker was _-ne_ (as in Quenya), and then
                                the Noldorin/Sindarin p.p. comes to end in _-nen_, of course.

                                > In any event, whatever the explanation of the Noldorin p.p. *_tirnen_,
                                its co-attestation with N sg. pa.t. _tiriant_ demonstrates that it cannot
                                simply be assumed or asserted to be based upon a pa.t. stem *_tirn-_. Nor,
                                above all, can we use such an assumption or assertion as an excuse to
                                ignore the fact that the _attested_ verb, _tiri-_/_tiria-_ is _derived_.

                                For the umpteenth time: _Tiri_ (notice that there is NO final hyphen in
                                Tolkien's text) is IMNSHO just the infinitive of the very much non-derived
                                (basic, primary) verb *_tir-_. Surely CFH must have noticed that many
                                Noldorin verbs have infinitives in -i, derived from older -ie? In the entry
                                NAR2 Tolkien derives _treneri_ "[to] tell" from older _trenarie_, which he
                                explicitly calls an "inf." form: Dead giveaway! Likewise, we would have the
                                inf. *_tirie_ "to watch" > later inf. _tiri_ (and likely *_tirn_ as the
                                pa.t., directly cognate with Quenya _tirne_ and underlying the past
                                participle _tirnen_ "watched, guarded" < *_tir-nê-nâ_). It is the following
                                synonymous verb *_tiria-_, infinitive _tirio_, which is derived and has the
                                past tense _tiriant_ (and then also a distinct past participle
                                _*tiriannen_, I guess). Let us make this crystal clear:

                                STEM INF. PA.T. P.P.
                                *tir- tiri *tirn tirnen
                                *tiria- tirio tiriant *tiriannen

                                (I don't asterisk _tirnen_ just because it happens to be lenited [_dirnen_]
                                in the source.)

                                While *_tirn_ is my best guess as the past tense of _tir-_, *_idir_ may be
                                considered as well. As for CFH's statement that "there is...no evidence
                                that any Sindarin verb derived from TIR- employs this pa.t. formation", he
                                is of course right that there is no direct or conclusive evidence. But once
                                we realize that _tiri_ is the infinitive form of a PRIMARY verb *_tir-_,
                                Tolkien's statement in WJ:415 surely becomes relevant: "Past tenses of
                                this form [the _agor_ type] were usual in Sindarin 'strong' or primary
                                verbs." Now Tolkien only says that they were usual, not universal, but this
                                does open up the _possibility_ of *_idir_ as one past tense of _tir-_. In
                                other words, I would initially put my money on *_tirn_, but if Tolkien's
                                angry ghost appears to me saying "This is totally wrong!", I will
                                immediately respond: "Ah...it is *_idir_, then?"

                                Well, this is getting off topic: nothing about the scripts. By all means,
                                since we do happen to have the past tense of a verb meaning "watch"
                                directly attested, we may just as well use it: _Im ha(n) tiriant minui_ "I
                                [emphatic] it saw first" (with the word order SOV, as in the Moria Gate
                                inscription: _Im Narvi hain echant..._). Otherwise CFH and I should
                                continue this discussion on Elfling. Ooops...a practical problem in his
                                end. Well, I think we have pretty much exhausted this topic anyway.

                                - HKF
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                I accept Helge s correction regarding my use of _tiri-_ as a stem-form, and thank him for it (as I have previously noted, I was clearly writing too late and
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 18, 2003
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                                  I accept Helge's correction regarding my use of "_tiri-_" as a
                                  stem-form, and thank him for it (as I have previously noted, I was
                                  clearly writing too late and too hastily that night). Fortunately, the
                                  status of *_tiri-_ has no bearing on my conclusions regarding his
                                  proposed past-tense forms, *_tirnin_ and *_idiren_, and above all no
                                  bearing on the main point: that given the (sole) attested pa.t. form
                                  _tiriant_, which Tolkien gives as the pa.t. of both alternates _tiri_
                                  and _tirio_, it makes no sense to invent a different pa.t. form based
                                  on conjecture concerning a putative past participle. Even if Helge's
                                  contentions regarding *_tirnen_ are accepted -- despite being
                                  unprovable -- *_tirnen_ in no way proves that any such pa.t. form as
                                  *_tirnin_ ever existed in Noldorin or Sindarin.

                                  I reject, however, Helge's small-minded and opportunistic response to
                                  an error I made in my first post, and myself corrected within hours,
                                  despite the fact that now three days later he has read my own
                                  correction (as he responds to a different part of my corrective post).
                                  Such petty behavior _ought_ to be beneath him.

                                  On to specific points:

                                  On Oct 18, 2003, at 2:48 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

                                  > The past tense _tiriant_ connects with the immediately preceding
                                  > infinitive form _tirio_; it is not necessarily intended as the pa.t.
                                  > of the synonym _tiri_ as well.

                                  I disagree. Tolkien's wording makes it quite clear that _tiri_ and
                                  _tirio_ are alternate forms, for which the past tense is _tiriant_: "N
                                  _tiri_ or _tirio_, pa.t. _tiriant_".

                                  > As for the final vowel before the pronominal ending, CFH surely
                                  > recalls the Turin Wrapper form _agorech_ instead of **_agorach_

                                  I dealt with Helge's unwarrented assumptions and assertions about
                                  _agor_ and _agorech_ and their relationship in a post I made to the
                                  Lambengolmor list two days ago, and to which I refer the interested
                                  reader: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/496>

                                  > If the stem TIR formed its past tense by the same pattern, maybe we
                                  > would see *_itîri_ as the primitive form?

                                  Perhaps, yes, as I have already implied in my Lambengolmor post.

                                  > Just like the long vowel of _akâra_ has been shortened in _agor_
                                  > (where _â_ became _au_ and then _o_), it may be assumed that *_itîr-_
                                  > would produce *_idir_ rather than *_idír_,

                                  But the long vowel of *_akâra_ was _not_ shortened: as your own figure
                                  indicates, it was diphthongized and then monophthongized. No such
                                  process would occur in *_itîra-_ / *_itîri-_, so I see no reason why
                                  the vowel would not remain long, esp. in stressed position.

                                  > at the stage sometimes called Middle Sindarin (a post-Tolkien term).

                                  Which is to say, a non-Tolkien term.

                                  > CFH returns to _tirnen_ in a later letter:
                                  >
                                  >> On further reflection, I think it is better to instead view N
                                  >> *_tirnen_ as simply an analogical formation based on the very
                                  >> frequent occurrence of p.ps. in _-nen_ among both basic and derived
                                  >> verbs in Noldorin, e.g. N. _dant-_ 'to fall', _dannen_ 'fallen' <
                                  >> DAT-, DANT-; N _presto_ 'to affect, trouble, disturb', _prestannen_
                                  >> 'affected' < PERES-; etc.
                                  >
                                  > On still further reflection, CFH may reach the insight that
                                  > _prestannen_ is the past tense *_prestant_ "disturbed, affected" + the
                                  > actual past participle marker _-en_ (the longer form -nen only occurs
                                  > incidentally, so to speak, where there happens to be or arise an -n-
                                  > before this shorter ending). In_prestannen_, we have intervocalic _nt_
                                  > becoming _nn_, a regular development.

                                  Despite Helge's false implication, I am of course quite fully aware of
                                  the actual historical processes underlying such past participles as N
                                  _prestannen_. That is precisely why I said that N *_tirnen_ is perhaps
                                  an _analogical_ formation, not a regular phonological development. I
                                  did not say -- as can plainly be seen from Helge's own quotation of my
                                  post -- that there is or ever was a past-participial ending _-nen_; I
                                  said only that past participles _in_ _-nen_ are very frequent. It is
                                  the frequency of such sequences that lead to analogical formations,
                                  just as we see with the pervasively analogical N/S pa.t. in _-nt_.

                                  > The past participle marker _-en_ historically evolves from _-e_ (the
                                  > vowel all past tense-forms originally seem to have ended in, still so
                                  > in Quenya) + the participial ending _-nâ_, worn down to _-n_ in
                                  > Noldorin/Sindarin.

                                  I disagree with this unqualified assertion. This _-en_ may also have
                                  arisen from *_-inâ_, and thus be cognate with the Quenya past
                                  participial ending _-ina_ exhibited by such relatively late Quenya
                                  forms as _rákina_ 'broken', etc.

                                  > Well, this is getting off topic: nothing about the scripts. By all
                                  > means, since we do happen to have the past tense of a verb meaning
                                  > "watch" directly attested, we may just as well use it:

                                  No, not "just as well": _better_. And what a novel idea. I wish I'd
                                  come up with it. Oh wait....

                                  > Otherwise CFH and I should continue this discussion on Elfling.
                                  > Ooops...a practical problem in his end.

                                  Again, this sort of petty behavior _ought_ to be beneath Helge. And as
                                  Helge is fully aware, we can carry out this and any other scholarly
                                  discussion of Tolkien's languages he would care to engage in on the
                                  Lambengolmor list, where no one hides behind the shield of censorship.

                                  > Well, I think we have pretty much exhausted this topic anyway.

                                  Hardly.



                                  --
                                  =============================================
                                  Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                                  ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                                  Ars longa, vita brevis.
                                  The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                                  "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                                  a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                                  ... and thank him for it (as I have previously noted, I was clearly writing too late and too hastily that night). [...] ... error I made in my first
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 25, 2003
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                                    Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                                    > I accept Helge's correction regarding my use of "_tiri-_" as a stem-form,
                                    and thank him for it (as I have previously noted, I was clearly writing too
                                    late and too hastily that night).
                                    [...]
                                    > I reject, however, Helge's small-minded and opportunistic response to an
                                    error I made in my first post...Such petty behavior _ought_ to be beneath
                                    him.

                                    So what is it, really? Does Hostetter thank me or call me names when I
                                    point out his mistakes? It seems to be the same error he refers to in both
                                    of the quotations above.

                                    However, this is clearly not the right forum to discuss the other
                                    linguistic issues he brought up, since they have nothing to do with the
                                    scripts: such as whether *_itîr-_ etc. would produce Sindarin *_idir_ or
                                    *_idír_ with a long vowel, or whether the past participle ending _-en_
                                    descends from _-e-nâ_ or _-inâ_. I have dealt with these things in notes
                                    added to my article "Reconstructing the Sindarin Verb System"; interested
                                    list members may access it and search for Hostetter's name:

                                    http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sverb-rec.htm

                                    A brand new Appendix also deals with some criticism he presented on the
                                    Lambengolmor list (whether it is proper to call past tense forms in _-nt_
                                    "3rd person" forms, as I have done).

                                    - HKF
                                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                                    ... Once again, Helge would rather jump to an absurd, even contradictory, conclusion, than to simply spend a few extra moments actually reading what I wrote.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 25, 2003
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                                      On Oct 25, 2003, at 8:42 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

                                      > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> I accept Helge's correction regarding my use of "_tiri-_" as a
                                      >> stem-form,
                                      > and thank him for it (as I have previously noted, I was clearly
                                      > writing too
                                      > late and too hastily that night).
                                      > [...]
                                      >> I reject, however, Helge's small-minded and opportunistic response to
                                      >> an
                                      > error I made in my first post...Such petty behavior _ought_ to be
                                      > beneath
                                      > him.
                                      >
                                      > So what is it, really? Does Hostetter thank me or call me names when I
                                      > point out his mistakes? It seems to be the same error he refers to in
                                      > both
                                      > of the quotations above.

                                      Once again, Helge would rather jump to an absurd, even contradictory,
                                      conclusion, than to simply spend a few extra moments actually reading
                                      what I wrote. The two were very clearly _not_ the same error.

                                      To answer Helge's question, I'm happy to accept corrections to (actual)
                                      errors. But when I have _already_ corrected my own error, in a post
                                      that Helge has clearly seen (if not read), because he is _replying_ to
                                      it and _quoting_ from it, then that is nothing more than pettiness.
                                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                                      ... List members that have followed this discussion may be interested in my comments upon and corrections to Helge s new notes:
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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                                        On Oct 25, 2003, at 8:42 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

                                        > I have dealt with these things in notes added to my article
                                        > "Reconstructing the Sindarin Verb System"; interested list members may
                                        > access it and search for Hostetter's name:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sverb-rec.htm

                                        List members that have followed this discussion may be interested in my
                                        comments upon and corrections to Helge's new notes:

                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/510>



                                        --
                                        =============================================
                                        Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                                        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                                        Ars longa, vita brevis.
                                        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                                        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                                        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                                        It has been one week since I posted my corrections to Helge s misrepresentations of my words in revisions he made to his Sindarin verb article, yet despite
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 4, 2003
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                                          It has been one week since I posted my corrections to Helge's misrepresentations of
                                          my words in revisions he made to his Sindarin verb article, yet despite having plenty
                                          of time to respond to people's posts online, he has yet to remove his false claims
                                          from his article. I respectfully request that he do so immediately, as should any who
                                          care about truth and accuracy in discussing Tolkien's linguistic inventions.

                                          (I'll also take this opportunity to note that Helge has an unclosed italics tag in his
                                          article, in the note in which he misrepresents my statement regarding the possible
                                          origins of the past participle ending _-en_.)



                                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Oct 25, 2003, at 8:42 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I have dealt with these things in notes added to my article
                                          > > "Reconstructing the Sindarin Verb System"; interested list members may
                                          > > access it and search for Hostetter's name:
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sverb-rec.htm
                                          >
                                          > List members that have followed this discussion may be interested in my
                                          > comments upon and corrections to Helge's new notes:
                                          >
                                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/510>
                                        • Karyn
                                          ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/LOTRtshirt.PNG ... Can you please tell me what font you used for this? Karyn
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@s...> wrote:
                                            > d_daniel_andries@w... wrote:
                                            > [...] I would suggest _Hîr i-Chorvath: han tiriannen minui._
                                            > > ('Lord of the Rings: I saw it first.') Written in the KLIII
                                            > tengwar mode, [...]
                                            >
                                            > Like so:
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/files/LOTRtshirt.PNG
                                            >
                                            > Elimloth

                                            Can you please tell me what font you used for this?
                                            Karyn
                                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                                            I see that despite having read my messages -- he corrected the unclosed tag I noted in my message within hours of its posting -- Helge has still not corrected
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
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                                              I see that despite having read my messages -- he corrected the unclosed tag I noted
                                              in my message within hours of its posting -- Helge has still not corrected his
                                              erroneous claims about and misrepresentations of my actual words and arguments
                                              concerning his treatment of Noldorin and Sindarin past-tense verbs.

                                              I hope that the open contempt for truth and accuracy, motivated by personal animus
                                              and political expediency, that Helge hereby exhibits will be noted and borne in mind
                                              by those of you who read his treatises and accept his claims uncritically.

                                              Don't accept _anything_ Helge says as true unless you can verify it for yourself from
                                              the actual sources.



                                              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:

                                              > It has been one week since I posted my corrections to Helge's misrepresentations of
                                              > my words in revisions he made to his Sindarin verb article, yet despite having plenty
                                              > of time to respond to people's posts online, he has yet to remove his false claims
                                              > from his article. I respectfully request that he do so immediately, as should any who
                                              > care about truth and accuracy in discussing Tolkien's linguistic inventions.
                                              >
                                              > (I'll also take this opportunity to note that Helge has an unclosed italics tag in his
                                              > article, in the note in which he misrepresents my statement regarding the possible
                                              > origins of the past participle ending _-en_.)
                                              >
                                              > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > On Oct 25, 2003, at 8:42 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > I have dealt with these things in notes added to my article
                                              > > > "Reconstructing the Sindarin Verb System"; interested list members may
                                              > > > access it and search for Hostetter's name:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sverb-rec.htm
                                              > >
                                              > > List members that have followed this discussion may be interested in my
                                              > > comments upon and corrections to Helge's new notes:
                                              > >
                                              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/510>
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