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Re: [elfscript] Re: Can anyone tell me whether these are correct?

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  • Chris Ruzin
    ... The y is a vowel here, so I used Romen. The way I wrote Michaela was based off of Tolkien s Michael Endorian signature. Take off the trailing a and
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2003
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      On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 12:26 AM, elimloth wrote:

      > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
      > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
      > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
      > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
      > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.

      The "y" is a vowel here, so I used Romen. The way I wrote "Michaela"
      was based off of Tolkien's Michael Endorian signature. Take off the
      trailing "a" and that's how he wrote "Michael".

      Chris

      --
      Chris Ruzin
      www.chrisruzin.net

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • P Key
      ... is ... YaTT ... Close, I actually used the online Tengwar Transcriber at http://www.tengwar.art.pl/ott/start.php. However, after reading posts to this
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@s...> wrote:
        > "P Key" <pkey_usm@y...> wrote:
        > > Can anyone tell me whether the text at http://pkey.us/elvish.asp
        is
        > > correctly transcribed?
        >
        > Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> wrote:
        > > Almost there...
        > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C
        >
        > Interesting. I'd guess pkey_usm used a machine transcriber like
        YaTT
        > or Tengscribe with the English mode developed by Måns Björkman
        > (1998). It produces the following from "Kathryn Michaela":
        >
        > z3E65Ø taT`CjR`C
        >
        > That matches the resulting Tengwar in the like s/he provided. Måns
        > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
        > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
        >
        > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
        > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
        > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
        > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
        > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.
        >
        > Now I'm interested in viewing Måns' mode table to see if there are
        > inaccuracies in it.
        >
        > Elimloth

        Close, I actually used the online Tengwar Transcriber at
        http://www.tengwar.art.pl/ott/start.php. However, after reading
        posts to this group and several others on the web, I wasn't certain
        that it was correctly transcribed.
      • Mach Hezan
        ... Apparently, here s a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn t work: In Tolkien s Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are only
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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          Chris Ruzin wrote:
          > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C

          Elimloth answered:
          > Måns
          > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
          > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
          >
          > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
          > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
          > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
          > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
          > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.

          Apparently, here's a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn't work: In
          Tolkien's Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are only
          transcribed with calma if they represent the sound heard in words like
          _church_.

          Otherwise, we have one instance of quesse with a vertical stroke below
          (perhaps to be understood as a halla) in the full writing version Brogan
          Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and two instances of extended calma (i.e.
          aspirated _k_) in the Brogan Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and in the Michael
          Endorion Dedication, as reported by Danny in the following two messages:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2424
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2498

          I'm not really sure whether yanta should be used for the _e_ of 'Michaela',
          because I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's pronounced as _Micha-ela_,
          then I wouldn't suggest it.

          suilaid
          mach
        • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
          ... was based ... I would have to agree with Chris. An attested example by Tolkien himself has precedence over other versions. I might have transcribed
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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            Teithant Chris Ruzin:
            >The way I wrote "Michaela"
            was based
            >off of Tolkien's Michael Endorian signature. Take off
            >the trailing "a" and that's how he wrote "Michael".

            I would have to agree with Chris. An attested example by Tolkien himself
            has precedence over other versions. I might have transcribed 'Michaela'
            differently before I saw how Tolkien himself wrote Michael Endorion's
            first name, but now I would transcribe it exactly as Chris did. BTW ...
            I am presently trying to track down Michael Endorion to get a scan of
            the inscription/autograph to add to Elfscript's 'Files' section.

            Cuio mae, Danny.
          • P Key
            ... work: In ... only ... like ... below ... Brogan ... Michael ... of Michaela , ... _Micha-ela_, ... It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Mach Hezan <machhezan@g...> wrote:
              > Chris Ruzin wrote:
              > > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C
              >
              > Elimloth answered:
              > > Måns
              > > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
              > > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
              > >
              > > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
              > > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
              > > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
              > > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
              > > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.
              >
              > Apparently, here's a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn't
              work: In
              > Tolkien's Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are
              only
              > transcribed with calma if they represent the sound heard in words
              like
              > _church_.
              >
              > Otherwise, we have one instance of quesse with a vertical stroke
              below
              > (perhaps to be understood as a halla) in the full writing version
              Brogan
              > Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and two instances of extended calma (i.e.
              > aspirated _k_) in the Brogan Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and in the
              Michael
              > Endorion Dedication, as reported by Danny in the following two
              messages:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2424
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2498
              >
              > I'm not really sure whether yanta should be used for the _e_
              of 'Michaela',
              > because I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's pronounced as
              _Micha-ela_,
              > then I wouldn't suggest it.
              >
              > suilaid
              > mach

              It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
              family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav
            • Chris Ruzin
              ... Going by how it s pronounced, what I gave should be correct. Chris -- Chris Ruzin www.chrisruzin.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:49 PM, P Key wrote:

                > It is pronounced like this:  http://www.key-
                > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                Going by how it's pronounced, what I gave should be correct.

                Chris

                --
                Chris Ruzin
                www.chrisruzin.net

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mach Hezan
                ... As I hear it, it s not pronounced as _Micha-ela_, so I d go with Chris and Danny. suilaid mach
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                  Mach Hezan wrote:
                  > > If it's pronounced as_Micha-ela_,
                  > > then I wouldn't suggest it.

                  P Key answered:
                  > It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
                  > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                  As I hear it, it's not pronounced as _Micha-ela_, so I'd go with Chris and
                  Danny.

                  suilaid
                  mach
                • elimloth
                  ... Agreed. BTW, I tried various words using the english.mod file and all CHs are rendered the same, with Calma. The ruleset does not attempt to distinguish
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                    P Key wrote:
                    > > It is pronounced like this:  http://www.key-
                    > > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                    Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> replied:
                    > Going by how it's pronounced, what I gave should be correct.

                    Agreed. BTW, I tried various words using the english.mod file and
                    all CHs are rendered the same, with Calma. The ruleset does not
                    attempt to distinguish between hachet, church vs. ache, chaos,
                    michael. Though the mode file already has nearly 500 rules, it might
                    be worth trying to map the common 'k' forms of CH.

                    Elimloth
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