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Can anyone tell me whether these are correct?

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  • P Key
    Can anyone tell me whether the text at http://pkey.us/elvish.asp is correctly transcribed? Thanks
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2003
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      Can anyone tell me whether the text at http://pkey.us/elvish.asp is
      correctly transcribed?

      Thanks
    • Chris Ruzin
      Almost there... Here s how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C Chris -- Chris Ruzin www.chrisruzin.net
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 8, 2003
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        Almost there...

        Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C

        Chris

        --
        Chris Ruzin
        www.chrisruzin.net
      • elimloth
        ... Interesting. I d guess pkey_usm used a machine transcriber like YaTT or Tengscribe with the English mode developed by Måns Björkman (1998). It produces
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 8, 2003
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          "P Key" <pkey_usm@y...> wrote:
          > Can anyone tell me whether the text at http://pkey.us/elvish.asp is
          > correctly transcribed?

          Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> wrote:
          > Almost there...
          > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C

          Interesting. I'd guess pkey_usm used a machine transcriber like YaTT
          or Tengscribe with the English mode developed by Måns Björkman
          (1998). It produces the following from "Kathryn Michaela":

          z3E65Ø taT`CjR`C

          That matches the resulting Tengwar in the like s/he provided. Måns
          based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
          http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).

          The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
          instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
          an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
          dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
          seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.

          Now I'm interested in viewing Måns' mode table to see if there are
          inaccuracies in it.

          Elimloth
        • Chris Ruzin
          ... The y is a vowel here, so I used Romen. The way I wrote Michaela was based off of Tolkien s Michael Endorian signature. Take off the trailing a and
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 8, 2003
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            On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 12:26 AM, elimloth wrote:

            > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
            > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
            > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
            > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
            > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.

            The "y" is a vowel here, so I used Romen. The way I wrote "Michaela"
            was based off of Tolkien's Michael Endorian signature. Take off the
            trailing "a" and that's how he wrote "Michael".

            Chris

            --
            Chris Ruzin
            www.chrisruzin.net

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • P Key
            ... is ... YaTT ... Close, I actually used the online Tengwar Transcriber at http://www.tengwar.art.pl/ott/start.php. However, after reading posts to this
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@s...> wrote:
              > "P Key" <pkey_usm@y...> wrote:
              > > Can anyone tell me whether the text at http://pkey.us/elvish.asp
              is
              > > correctly transcribed?
              >
              > Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> wrote:
              > > Almost there...
              > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C
              >
              > Interesting. I'd guess pkey_usm used a machine transcriber like
              YaTT
              > or Tengscribe with the English mode developed by Måns Björkman
              > (1998). It produces the following from "Kathryn Michaela":
              >
              > z3E65Ø taT`CjR`C
              >
              > That matches the resulting Tengwar in the like s/he provided. Måns
              > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
              > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
              >
              > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
              > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
              > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
              > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
              > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.
              >
              > Now I'm interested in viewing Måns' mode table to see if there are
              > inaccuracies in it.
              >
              > Elimloth

              Close, I actually used the online Tengwar Transcriber at
              http://www.tengwar.art.pl/ott/start.php. However, after reading
              posts to this group and several others on the web, I wasn't certain
              that it was correctly transcribed.
            • Mach Hezan
              ... Apparently, here s a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn t work: In Tolkien s Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are only
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                Chris Ruzin wrote:
                > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C

                Elimloth answered:
                > Måns
                > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
                > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
                >
                > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
                > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
                > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
                > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
                > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.

                Apparently, here's a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn't work: In
                Tolkien's Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are only
                transcribed with calma if they represent the sound heard in words like
                _church_.

                Otherwise, we have one instance of quesse with a vertical stroke below
                (perhaps to be understood as a halla) in the full writing version Brogan
                Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and two instances of extended calma (i.e.
                aspirated _k_) in the Brogan Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and in the Michael
                Endorion Dedication, as reported by Danny in the following two messages:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2424
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2498

                I'm not really sure whether yanta should be used for the _e_ of 'Michaela',
                because I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's pronounced as _Micha-ela_,
                then I wouldn't suggest it.

                suilaid
                mach
              • d_daniel_andries@webtv.net
                ... was based ... I would have to agree with Chris. An attested example by Tolkien himself has precedence over other versions. I might have transcribed
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                  Teithant Chris Ruzin:
                  >The way I wrote "Michaela"
                  was based
                  >off of Tolkien's Michael Endorian signature. Take off
                  >the trailing "a" and that's how he wrote "Michael".

                  I would have to agree with Chris. An attested example by Tolkien himself
                  has precedence over other versions. I might have transcribed 'Michaela'
                  differently before I saw how Tolkien himself wrote Michael Endorion's
                  first name, but now I would transcribe it exactly as Chris did. BTW ...
                  I am presently trying to track down Michael Endorion to get a scan of
                  the inscription/autograph to add to Elfscript's 'Files' section.

                  Cuio mae, Danny.
                • P Key
                  ... work: In ... only ... like ... below ... Brogan ... Michael ... of Michaela , ... _Micha-ela_, ... It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Mach Hezan <machhezan@g...> wrote:
                    > Chris Ruzin wrote:
                    > > > Here's how I wrote it: z3E75Ø tZTlEj`C
                    >
                    > Elimloth answered:
                    > > Måns
                    > > based his mode on the LoTR title page and other specimina (see
                    > > http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm).
                    > >
                    > > The difference between it and Chris' transcription is use of Ore
                    > > instead of Romen for R, the use of Calma instead of Hwesta(?) with
                    > > an extended Telco for CH, and vowel gathering to produce the AE
                    > > dipthong. Mans' mode is based on the , and Chris' transcription
                    > > seems to have a mode of Gondor influence.
                    >
                    > Apparently, here's a case where the tengwar transcriber doesn't
                    work: In
                    > Tolkien's Traditional Spelling English modes, the letters _ch_ are
                    only
                    > transcribed with calma if they represent the sound heard in words
                    like
                    > _church_.
                    >
                    > Otherwise, we have one instance of quesse with a vertical stroke
                    below
                    > (perhaps to be understood as a halla) in the full writing version
                    Brogan
                    > Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and two instances of extended calma (i.e.
                    > aspirated _k_) in the Brogan Tengwa Greetings, DTS 10, and in the
                    Michael
                    > Endorion Dedication, as reported by Danny in the following two
                    messages:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2424
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/2498
                    >
                    > I'm not really sure whether yanta should be used for the _e_
                    of 'Michaela',
                    > because I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's pronounced as
                    _Micha-ela_,
                    > then I wouldn't suggest it.
                    >
                    > suilaid
                    > mach

                    It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
                    family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav
                  • Chris Ruzin
                    ... Going by how it s pronounced, what I gave should be correct. Chris -- Chris Ruzin www.chrisruzin.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                      On Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:49 PM, P Key wrote:

                      > It is pronounced like this:  http://www.key-
                      > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                      Going by how it's pronounced, what I gave should be correct.

                      Chris

                      --
                      Chris Ruzin
                      www.chrisruzin.net

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mach Hezan
                      ... As I hear it, it s not pronounced as _Micha-ela_, so I d go with Chris and Danny. suilaid mach
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                        Mach Hezan wrote:
                        > > If it's pronounced as_Micha-ela_,
                        > > then I wouldn't suggest it.

                        P Key answered:
                        > It is pronounced like this: http://www.key-
                        > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                        As I hear it, it's not pronounced as _Micha-ela_, so I'd go with Chris and
                        Danny.

                        suilaid
                        mach
                      • elimloth
                        ... Agreed. BTW, I tried various words using the english.mod file and all CHs are rendered the same, with Calma. The ruleset does not attempt to distinguish
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 9, 2003
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                          P Key wrote:
                          > > It is pronounced like this:  http://www.key-
                          > > family.com/kathryn/Michaela_F.wav

                          Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> replied:
                          > Going by how it's pronounced, what I gave should be correct.

                          Agreed. BTW, I tried various words using the english.mod file and
                          all CHs are rendered the same, with Calma. The ruleset does not
                          attempt to distinguish between hachet, church vs. ache, chaos,
                          michael. Though the mode file already has nearly 500 rules, it might
                          be worth trying to map the common 'k' forms of CH.

                          Elimloth
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