Re: Ómatehtar & Sindarin again
- Lucy wrote (concerning an unattested Sindarin ómatehtar mode that uses
calmatéma for velars):
> I am still wavering about the diphthongs. Some of you advanced sayI share that different feeling: I think that most tengwar modes represent
> they are treated as two separate vowels in Tengwar but I have a
> different feeling. I think that the diphthongs of KL III are used
> also in the tehta mode for Sindarin
diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta (no matter whether it's a tehtar mode or a
full writing mode), though there are some modes that don't. The modes that
don't represent diphthongs with one tengwa + tehta are mostly full writing
modes. As far as I know, there's no tehtar mode that would represent
diphthongs with two tehtar throughout.
So I think we can affirm that the tengwar show a strong tendency to
represent diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta, and that this tendency is even
stronger in tehtar modes.
But there's another, much stronger, evidence about tengwar: the témar
consistency, which means that all tengwar that belong to the same téma
represent sounds that share the same point of articulation (i.e. that are
all either labial, or dental, etc.).
Sindarin has diphthongs that end on -i. This is a palatal sound.
Accordingly, the tengwa used for its representation in KL III, anna, belongs
to the palatal téma of that mode.
In the Sindarin mode you wish to write, however, the téma of the tengwa
anna, the calmatéma, isn't palatal but velar. That means that because of
témar consistency, anna must represent a velar sound. It can't represent the
palatal sound it represents in KL III.
So you'll have to find another way of representing the diphthongs that end
on -i. I believe that any solution will have some inconsistencies with the
published tengwar texts, no matter whether you choose to maintain or to
break the tendency of representing diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta.
The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with to points below
for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a tehta.
- Teithant Mach:
> Sindarin has diphthongs that end on -i. This is a palatal sound.And diphtongs ending with e (AE, OE) and u/-w (AU/AW). For e
> Accordingly, the tengwa used for its representation in KL III,
> anna, belongs to the palatal téma of that mode.
diphthongs, I would use yanta and A tehta. As far as I remember, you
suggested to use úre and A tehta for AU/AW.
> So you'll have to find another way of representing the diphthongsthat end on -i.
You also suggested using vala for W (I was wondering if vala is used
in the middle of words and wilya in the end) so if I need a tengwa
from 6th tyeller representing a palatal sound that could be used for
a tengwa in a diphthong, the only remained is wilya. Would this
work???? I don'T think so and either do you BMO, according to the
> The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with toWhat do these two 'underdots' represent? Where are they used? I am
> points below for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a
just trying to learn...
BTW, I am well aware of the inconsistency. Until some more material
is published, I will probably have to come to terms with using Gondor
mode (using just quessetéma), vrrr, although it will be very hard for
me. It means I have to re-transcribe my poem. Since none has
commented it I suppose it is completely incorrect because I used the
mode that has no evidence.
Thanks for your comments and help; I have a great regard for it.
- I wrote:
> > The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with toLucy answered:
> > points below for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a
> > tehta.
> What do these two 'underdots' represent? Where are they used? I amThey're taken from the Quenya mode where they represent a following /y/. For
> just trying to learn...
example in the transcription of Namaarie (DTS 20) we have anna with two dots
above for initial /y/. I analyze this the following way: Anna in that mode
is a kind of a carrier, i.e. a mute letter that isn't read. Only the two
points above are read, the (following) /y/. Carrier + following /y/ = /y/.
The same analysis can be made in the Sindarin mode you propose.
I've thought of a third possible solution for the diphthongs in that
Sindarin mode: Write diphthongs ending on -i with yanta, diphthongs ending
on -e with the stemless calma (the c-shaped tengwa).
> BTW, I am well aware of the inconsistency. Until some more materialA mode that isn't evidenced by Tolkien IMO doesn't need to be incorrect. It
> is published, I will probably have to come to terms with using
> Gondor mode (using just quessetéma), vrrr, although it will be very
> hard for me. It means I have to re-transcribe my poem. Since none
> has commented it I suppose it is completely incorrect because I
> used the mode that has no evidence.
can still be a good consistent mode or a bad inconsistent mode. I haven't
looked very atently at your transcription, because I don't know much
Sindarin, but since there are no diphthongs, I suppose it's all right.
- B.Philip Jonsson wrote:
> I use the following tengwar for the second part of diphthongs:Why anna and not yanta? (as in KL III)
> -e Yanta
> -i Anna
> -u Úre
> And then Anna with two dots below for initial _i_ before a vowel
> and for _i_ between two vowels.