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Re: Ómatehtar & Sindarin again

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  • Mach Hezan
    Lucy wrote (concerning an unattested Sindarin ómatehtar mode that uses ... I share that different feeling: I think that most tengwar modes represent
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 4, 2003
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      Lucy wrote (concerning an unattested Sindarin ómatehtar mode that uses
      calmatéma for velars):

      > I am still wavering about the diphthongs. Some of you advanced say
      > they are treated as two separate vowels in Tengwar but I have a
      > different feeling. I think that the diphthongs of KL III are used
      > also in the tehta mode for Sindarin

      I share that different feeling: I think that most tengwar modes represent
      diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta (no matter whether it's a tehtar mode or a
      full writing mode), though there are some modes that don't. The modes that
      don't represent diphthongs with one tengwa + tehta are mostly full writing
      modes. As far as I know, there's no tehtar mode that would represent
      diphthongs with two tehtar throughout.

      So I think we can affirm that the tengwar show a strong tendency to
      represent diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta, and that this tendency is even
      stronger in tehtar modes.

      But there's another, much stronger, evidence about tengwar: the témar
      consistency, which means that all tengwar that belong to the same téma
      represent sounds that share the same point of articulation (i.e. that are
      all either labial, or dental, etc.).

      Sindarin has diphthongs that end on -i. This is a palatal sound.
      Accordingly, the tengwa used for its representation in KL III, anna, belongs
      to the palatal téma of that mode.

      In the Sindarin mode you wish to write, however, the téma of the tengwa
      anna, the calmatéma, isn't palatal but velar. That means that because of
      témar consistency, anna must represent a velar sound. It can't represent the
      palatal sound it represents in KL III.

      So you'll have to find another way of representing the diphthongs that end
      on -i. I believe that any solution will have some inconsistencies with the
      published tengwar texts, no matter whether you choose to maintain or to
      break the tendency of representing diphthongs as one tengwa + tehta.

      The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with to points below
      for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a tehta.

      suilaid
      mach
    • Calwen Rudh
      ... And diphtongs ending with –e (AE, OE) and –u/-w (AU/AW). For –e diphthongs, I would use yanta and A tehta. As far as I remember, you suggested to use
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 6, 2003
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        Teithant Mach:
        > Sindarin has diphthongs that end on -i. This is a palatal sound.
        > Accordingly, the tengwa used for its representation in KL III,
        > anna, belongs to the palatal téma of that mode.

        And diphtongs ending with –e (AE, OE) and –u/-w (AU/AW). For –e
        diphthongs, I would use yanta and A tehta. As far as I remember, you
        suggested to use úre and A tehta for AU/AW.

        > So you'll have to find another way of representing the diphthongs
        that end on -i.

        You also suggested using vala for W (I was wondering if vala is used
        in the middle of words and wilya in the end) so if I need a tengwa
        from 6th tyeller representing a palatal sound that could be used for
        a tengwa in a diphthong, the only remained is wilya. Would this
        work???? I don'T think so and either do you BMO, according to the
        following:


        > The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with to
        > points below for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a
        > tehta.

        What do these two 'underdots' represent? Where are they used? I am
        just trying to learn...

        BTW, I am well aware of the inconsistency. Until some more material
        is published, I will probably have to come to terms with using Gondor
        mode (using just quessetéma), vrrr, although it will be very hard for
        me. It means I have to re-transcribe my poem. Since none has
        commented it I suppose it is completely incorrect because I used the
        mode that has no evidence.

        Thanks for your comments and help; I have a great regard for it.

        Lucy
      • Mach Hezan
        ... They re taken from the Quenya mode where they represent a following /y/. For example in the transcription of Namaarie (DTS 20) we have anna with two dots
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 6, 2003
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          I wrote:
          > > The (inconsistent) solutions I like best: (a) use anna with to
          > > points below for -i; (b) use yanta for -i, represent -e with a
          > > tehta.

          Lucy answered:
          > What do these two 'underdots' represent? Where are they used? I am
          > just trying to learn...

          They're taken from the Quenya mode where they represent a following /y/. For
          example in the transcription of Namaarie (DTS 20) we have anna with two dots
          above for initial /y/. I analyze this the following way: Anna in that mode
          is a kind of a carrier, i.e. a mute letter that isn't read. Only the two
          points above are read, the (following) /y/. Carrier + following /y/ = /y/.
          The same analysis can be made in the Sindarin mode you propose.

          I've thought of a third possible solution for the diphthongs in that
          Sindarin mode: Write diphthongs ending on -i with yanta, diphthongs ending
          on -e with the stemless calma (the c-shaped tengwa).

          > BTW, I am well aware of the inconsistency. Until some more material
          > is published, I will probably have to come to terms with using
          > Gondor mode (using just quessetéma), vrrr, although it will be very
          > hard for me. It means I have to re-transcribe my poem. Since none
          > has commented it I suppose it is completely incorrect because I
          > used the mode that has no evidence.

          A mode that isn't evidenced by Tolkien IMO doesn't need to be incorrect. It
          can still be a good consistent mode or a bad inconsistent mode. I haven't
          looked very atently at your transcription, because I don't know much
          Sindarin, but since there are no diphthongs, I suppose it's all right.

          suilaid
          mach
        • Mach Hezan
          ... Why anna and not yanta? (as in KL III) suilaid Mach
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 7, 2003
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            B.Philip Jonsson wrote:
            > I use the following tengwar for the second part of diphthongs:
            >
            > -e Yanta
            > -i Anna
            > -u Úre
            >
            > And then Anna with two dots below for initial _i_ before a vowel
            > and for _i_ between two vowels.

            Why anna and not yanta? (as in KL III)

            suilaid
            Mach
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