Gildor Inglorion deithant:
>I realised that Certhas Daeron was used for Old
>As you see the oldest cirth that
>Tolkien gave in Appendix E are clean sounds, the only
>sounds that OS has.
It is my understanding that these these oldest cirth were not called the
Certhas Daeron. App. E states "The Certhas Daeron was originally devised to
represent the sounds of Sindarin only. The oldest cirth were 1, 2, 5, 6; 8,
9, 12; 18, 19, 22; 29, 31; 35, 36; 39, 42, 46, 50; and a certh varying
between 13 and 15." I believe that JRRT listed the oldest cirth to give us
an idea of what existed as Daeron's starting point, not meaning to imply
that these were the components of the Certhas Daeron. They were the
foundation on which Daeron began his work.
The cirth for umlauted sounds must
>be invented at the Sindarin period.
I agree. The umlauted vowel cirth were among the elaborations of Daeron. The
presence of a certh for '�' indicates that the Sindarin was an earlier form
of the language, but we don't know when '�' was discarded in favour of
>But then I ask: some say that the Certhas based on the
Daeron's rearrangement, the Certhas Daeron, was based on the tengwar; the
primitive cirth shapes were not. We are not even told what sounds (other
than 13/15 and 35) these earliest cirth had. Guessing that they had the same
values as they did in their Certhas Daeron stage is, at best, only
>I also want to ask: the older Certhas is called
>Certhas Daeron. But the Certhas was invented by the
Again, I believe that the term Certhas Daeron refered to Daeron's first
reworking of the old cirth, not to the oldest cirth themselves. And Daeron
was a Sinda.
Much later Daeron made an extended alphabet
>known as Angerthas Daeron. So why that old version is
>called certhas DAERON? :)
I think the first elaboration of the early cirth was the Certhas Daeron. The
further extensions (e.g. the addition of series 13-17 and 23-28) made it the
Angerthas Daeron, the 'long rune-rows of Daeron'. These additions, according
to JRRT, were probably invented by the Noldor of Eregion. However, Daeron
was credited with the original rearrangement and elaboration of the cirth,
so his name was still connected to the writing system even after it
contained characters that he had no part in devising.
These are my thoughts on the subject anyway!
Cuio mae, Danny.
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