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Re: [elfscript] odd tehta

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  • Angasule
    ... I don t have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend I m trying to convert , A&I I can t afford yet!). I ll check on the LotR example
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 26 10:25 AM
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      Mans Bjorkman wrote:
      >
      > Angasule wrote:
      > >
      > > Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
      > > had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
      > > thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
      > > think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
      > > before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
      > > curious :)
      >
      > To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed
      > that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of
      > _The Lord of the Rings_, in the word "by" -- although it here represents
      > a different sound. Either way, these y-tehtar must both be concessions
      > to English Roman orthography, since English lacks an independent /y/
      > phoneme.
      >
      > Another possibility is that the y-tehta on the title-page (shaped like a
      > V) is related to the ae-tehta (shaped like an upside-down a-tehta) found
      > in _Artist and Illustrator_ (DTS 41), in which case it should represent
      > the English diphthong /ai/ rather than the Roman letter <y>.
      I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
      I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
      LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
      concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
      explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
      Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
      interchangeable!
      Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
      be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
      does in LotR and A&I.
      Angasule

      A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine.

      --

      A page about Tolkien, the Middle Ages and languages:
      http://angasule.cjb.net
      A page about Tolkien's languages: http://haldailin.angasule.cjb.net
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... OK, this is the situation: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 26 11:48 AM
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        Angasule wrote:
        >
        > I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
        > I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
        > LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
        > concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
        > explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
        > Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
        > interchangeable!
        > Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
        > be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
        > does in LotR and A&I.

        OK, this is the situation:

        Letter #118 (in "very happy")
        shape: 'breve'
        transcription: <y>
        sound: [i]
        LotR title-page (in "by")
        shape: V
        transcription: <y>
        sound: [ai]
        A&I ill. 186 (in *"claedioulas")
        shape: upside-down a-tehta (three dots)
        transcription: <ae>
        sound: [ai]

        It should also be mentioned that the last tehta is also used in some
        English inscriptions (A&I ill. 184) for /æ/, as in /spænish preyz fr
        britn/ and /næshnlist baking fr njoo dil/ (transcribed newspaper
        headlines).

        Yours,
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        Måns Björkman deithant: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 8, 2001
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          Måns Björkman deithant:

          Letter #118 (in "very happy")
          shape: 'breve'
          transcription: <y>
          sound: [i]
          LotR title-page (in "by")
          shape: V
          transcription: <y>
          sound: [ai]

          Please allow me to add one more:
          LotR title-page (in "history")
          shape: V
          transcription: <y>
          sound: [i]

          So I agree that this tehta (and its variants) is a concession to
          orthography as it represents a written vocalic 'y' regardless of the
          vowel sound in the spoken word.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • Mans Bjorkman
          ... In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in history is conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me it looks more
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
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            DDanielA@... wrote:
            >
            > Please allow me to add one more:
            > LotR title-page (in "history")
            > shape: V
            > transcription: <y>
            > sound: [i]

            In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in "history" is
            conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me
            it looks more like a single dot. But perhaps the text is reproduced more
            clearly in other editions. Are you sure about your interpretation,
            Danny?

            Yours,
            Måns

            --
            Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
            Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
            SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
            Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
          • DDanielA@webtv.net
            Måns Björkman deithant: DDanielA@webtv.net wrote: Please allow me to add one more: LotR title-page (in history ) shape: V transcription: sound : [i] In
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
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              Måns Björkman deithant:
              DDanielA@... wrote:
              Please allow me to add one more:
              LotR title-page (in "history")
              shape: V
              transcription: <y>
              sound : [i]

              In my copies of The Lord of the Rings
              the y-tehta in "history" is conflated
              with, and partly obscured by, the
              previous o-tehta, and to me it looks
              more like a single dot. But perhaps
              the text is reproduced more clearly in
              other editions. Are you sure about your
              interpretation, Danny?

              Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
              title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
              in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.
              Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
              V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
              because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
              should.

              Cuio mae, Danny.
            • Mans Bjorkman
              ... Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case of fair
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 13, 2001
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                DDanielA@... wrote:
                >
                > Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
                > title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
                > in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.

                Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to
                acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case
                of fair use.)


                > Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
                > V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
                > because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
                > should.

                In the copies I have access to, the y-tehta in "by" also has a shorter
                left "leg". Perhaps this is after all a characteristic trait of the
                tehta?

                Yours,
                Måns

                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
              • DDanielA@webtv.net
                Måns Björkman deithant: Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? It is a
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 15, 2001
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                  Måns Björkman deithant:
                  Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                  more precisely? Would it be
                  possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction?

                  It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                  also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                  'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                  Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                  written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                  circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                  eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                  version! As for scanning, I'm on WebTV, which is not scanner compatible,
                  but I will try to get it done on a friend's computer.

                  Cuio mae, Danny.
                • Mans Bjorkman
                  ... Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997 3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume Houghton-Mifflin edition: the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 18, 2001
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                    DDanielA@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Måns Björkman deithant:
                    > Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                    > more precisely? Would it be
                    > possible to acquire a scan of this
                    > reproduction?
                    >
                    > It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                    > also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                    > 'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                    > Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                    > written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                    > circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                    > eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                    > version!

                    Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997
                    3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume
                    Houghton-Mifflin edition: the "a" in "as" is three dots, and the "y" in
                    "history" appears to be a single dot. This seems to be the more common
                    version of the inscription. My guess would be that the one-volume
                    Houghton-Mifflin inscription is a redrawn version of the original. The
                    artist who made the redrawing probably wanted to correct points that
                    seemed ambigous or erroneous, and so "corrected" the y-tehta in
                    "history" to the hacek.

                    Yrs,
                    Måns

                    --
                    Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                    Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                    SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                    Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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