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Re: [elfscript] odd tehta

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    ... To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of _The Lord of
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
      Angasule wrote:
      >
      > Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
      > had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
      > thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
      > think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
      > before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
      > curious :)

      To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed
      that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of
      _The Lord of the Rings_, in the word "by" -- although it here represents
      a different sound. Either way, these y-tehtar must both be concessions
      to English Roman orthography, since English lacks an independent /y/
      phoneme.

      Another possibility is that the y-tehta on the title-page (shaped like a
      V) is related to the ae-tehta (shaped like an upside-down a-tehta) found
      in _Artist and Illustrator_ (DTS 41), in which case it should represent
      the English diphthong /ai/ rather than the Roman letter <y>.

      Yours,
      Måns

      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
    • Angasule
      ... I don t have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend I m trying to convert , A&I I can t afford yet!). I ll check on the LotR example
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
        Mans Bjorkman wrote:
        >
        > Angasule wrote:
        > >
        > > Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
        > > had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
        > > thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
        > > think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
        > > before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
        > > curious :)
        >
        > To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed
        > that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of
        > _The Lord of the Rings_, in the word "by" -- although it here represents
        > a different sound. Either way, these y-tehtar must both be concessions
        > to English Roman orthography, since English lacks an independent /y/
        > phoneme.
        >
        > Another possibility is that the y-tehta on the title-page (shaped like a
        > V) is related to the ae-tehta (shaped like an upside-down a-tehta) found
        > in _Artist and Illustrator_ (DTS 41), in which case it should represent
        > the English diphthong /ai/ rather than the Roman letter <y>.
        I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
        I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
        LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
        concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
        explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
        Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
        interchangeable!
        Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
        be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
        does in LotR and A&I.
        Angasule

        A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine.

        --

        A page about Tolkien, the Middle Ages and languages:
        http://angasule.cjb.net
        A page about Tolkien's languages: http://haldailin.angasule.cjb.net
      • Mans Bjorkman
        ... OK, this is the situation: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
          Angasule wrote:
          >
          > I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
          > I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
          > LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
          > concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
          > explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
          > Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
          > interchangeable!
          > Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
          > be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
          > does in LotR and A&I.

          OK, this is the situation:

          Letter #118 (in "very happy")
          shape: 'breve'
          transcription: <y>
          sound: [i]
          LotR title-page (in "by")
          shape: V
          transcription: <y>
          sound: [ai]
          A&I ill. 186 (in *"claedioulas")
          shape: upside-down a-tehta (three dots)
          transcription: <ae>
          sound: [ai]

          It should also be mentioned that the last tehta is also used in some
          English inscriptions (A&I ill. 184) for /æ/, as in /spænish preyz fr
          britn/ and /næshnlist baking fr njoo dil/ (transcribed newspaper
          headlines).

          Yours,
          Måns


          --
          Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
          Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
          SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
          Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
        • DDanielA@webtv.net
          Måns Björkman deithant: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 8, 2001
            Måns Björkman deithant:

            Letter #118 (in "very happy")
            shape: 'breve'
            transcription: <y>
            sound: [i]
            LotR title-page (in "by")
            shape: V
            transcription: <y>
            sound: [ai]

            Please allow me to add one more:
            LotR title-page (in "history")
            shape: V
            transcription: <y>
            sound: [i]

            So I agree that this tehta (and its variants) is a concession to
            orthography as it represents a written vocalic 'y' regardless of the
            vowel sound in the spoken word.

            Cuio mae, Danny.
          • Mans Bjorkman
            ... In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in history is conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me it looks more
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
              DDanielA@... wrote:
              >
              > Please allow me to add one more:
              > LotR title-page (in "history")
              > shape: V
              > transcription: <y>
              > sound: [i]

              In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in "history" is
              conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me
              it looks more like a single dot. But perhaps the text is reproduced more
              clearly in other editions. Are you sure about your interpretation,
              Danny?

              Yours,
              Måns

              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              Måns Björkman deithant: DDanielA@webtv.net wrote: Please allow me to add one more: LotR title-page (in history ) shape: V transcription: sound : [i] In
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
                Måns Björkman deithant:
                DDanielA@... wrote:
                Please allow me to add one more:
                LotR title-page (in "history")
                shape: V
                transcription: <y>
                sound : [i]

                In my copies of The Lord of the Rings
                the y-tehta in "history" is conflated
                with, and partly obscured by, the
                previous o-tehta, and to me it looks
                more like a single dot. But perhaps
                the text is reproduced more clearly in
                other editions. Are you sure about your
                interpretation, Danny?

                Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
                title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
                in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.
                Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
                V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
                because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
                should.

                Cuio mae, Danny.
              • Mans Bjorkman
                ... Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case of fair
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 13, 2001
                  DDanielA@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
                  > title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
                  > in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.

                  Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to
                  acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case
                  of fair use.)


                  > Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
                  > V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
                  > because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
                  > should.

                  In the copies I have access to, the y-tehta in "by" also has a shorter
                  left "leg". Perhaps this is after all a characteristic trait of the
                  tehta?

                  Yours,
                  Måns

                  --
                  Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                  Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                  SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                  Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                • DDanielA@webtv.net
                  Måns Björkman deithant: Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? It is a
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 15, 2001
                    Måns Björkman deithant:
                    Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                    more precisely? Would it be
                    possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction?

                    It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                    also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                    'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                    Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                    written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                    circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                    eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                    version! As for scanning, I'm on WebTV, which is not scanner compatible,
                    but I will try to get it done on a friend's computer.

                    Cuio mae, Danny.
                  • Mans Bjorkman
                    ... Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997 3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume Houghton-Mifflin edition: the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 18, 2001
                      DDanielA@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Måns Björkman deithant:
                      > Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                      > more precisely? Would it be
                      > possible to acquire a scan of this
                      > reproduction?
                      >
                      > It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                      > also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                      > 'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                      > Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                      > written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                      > circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                      > eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                      > version!

                      Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997
                      3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume
                      Houghton-Mifflin edition: the "a" in "as" is three dots, and the "y" in
                      "history" appears to be a single dot. This seems to be the more common
                      version of the inscription. My guess would be that the one-volume
                      Houghton-Mifflin inscription is a redrawn version of the original. The
                      artist who made the redrawing probably wanted to correct points that
                      seemed ambigous or erroneous, and so "corrected" the y-tehta in
                      "history" to the hacek.

                      Yrs,
                      Måns

                      --
                      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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