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Tengwar for other languages

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  • Abrigon Gusiq
    I was once working on a Tengwar or like for Inupiaq eskimo, but sadly moved and lost my books/notes.. Anyone else doing a Tengwar for a non-European language?
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 1, 2003
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      I was once working on a Tengwar or like for Inupiaq eskimo, but sadly
      moved and lost my books/notes..

      Anyone else doing a Tengwar for a non-European language?

      Mike
    • Mach Hezan
      ... Is Arabian a European language? Except for that, I once tried to make a mode for Guarani when I was learning a little bit of that language, but I couldn t
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 3, 2003
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        Mike wrote:
        > I was once working on a Tengwar or like for Inupiaq eskimo,
        > but sadly moved and lost my books/notes..
        >
        > Anyone else doing a Tengwar for a non-European language?

        Is Arabian a European language? Except for that, I once tried to make a mode
        for Guarani when I was learning a little bit of that language, but I
        couldn't find a good way to represent the distinction between nasalized and
        non-nasalized words (if a word has a nasalized vowel, several consonants can
        be affected).

        Is Sanskrit a European language? There's a common problem with Sanskrit,
        Arabian, and as far as I know also with Inupiaq: Their number of consonant
        articulation places exceeds the number of teemar. My solution has been
        introducing new teema by taking the tengwar of another teema plus a tehta,
        as in the Quenya example with its tyelpe teema. But what tengwar and what
        tehtar should be chosen? But I could also imagine that for some languages
        that have many places but few manners of consonant articulation, it would be
        justified not to use the teemar but the tyeller for the places of
        articulation, perhaps for some Australian aboriginal languages.

        suilaid
        mach
      • Mike
        One thing I noticed about Tengwar and to a degree Cirth, is that they are based on the sounds placement in the human mouth. So to do a non-european language,
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 8, 2003
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          One thing I noticed about Tengwar and to a degree Cirth, is that they
          are based on the sounds placement in the human mouth.

          So to do a non-european language, or even ones that are related to
          many European languages (Sanskrit), all you need to do, is to find out
          where the mouth the sound originates, and where it ends at.

          And then line up the tengwar, it is based on lines of 4.

          Front, Medium, Medium and Rear of the mouth. Or so it seems.

          And then designate symbols/characters on where they are in the
          mouth/diagram?

          Mike
          Arabic is not a Indo-European language, same with Inupiaq and like..


          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Mach Hezan <machhezan@g...> wrote:
          > Mike wrote:
          > > I was once working on a Tengwar or like for Inupiaq eskimo,
          > > but sadly moved and lost my books/notes..
          > >
          > > Anyone else doing a Tengwar for a non-European language?
          >
          > Is Arabian a European language? Except for that, I once tried to
          make a mode
          > for Guarani when I was learning a little bit of that language, but I
          > couldn't find a good way to represent the distinction between
          nasalized and
          > non-nasalized words (if a word has a nasalized vowel, several
          consonants can
          > be affected).
          >
          > Is Sanskrit a European language? There's a common problem with
          Sanskrit,
          > Arabian, and as far as I know also with Inupiaq: Their number of
          consonant
          > articulation places exceeds the number of teemar. My solution has
          been
          > introducing new teema by taking the tengwar of another teema plus a
          tehta,
          > as in the Quenya example with its tyelpe teema. But what tengwar and
          what
          > tehtar should be chosen? But I could also imagine that for some
          languages
          > that have many places but few manners of consonant articulation, it
          would be
          > justified not to use the teemar but the tyeller for the places of
          > articulation, perhaps for some Australian aboriginal languages.
          >
          > suilaid
          > mach
        • mach
          ... sure ... But my point was: What if that language has 5 places (sanskrit, arabian), or even more (e.g. in many Australian languages). That s difficult to
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 9, 2003
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            Mike wrote:
            > One thing I noticed about Tengwar and to a degree Cirth, is that they
            > are based on the sounds placement in the human mouth.

            sure

            > So to do a non-european language, or even ones that are related to
            > many European languages (Sanskrit), all you need to do, is to find out
            > where the mouth the sound originates, and where it ends at.
            >
            > And then line up the tengwar, it is based on lines of 4.
            >
            > Front, Medium, Medium and Rear of the mouth. Or so it seems.

            But my point was: What if that language has 5 places (sanskrit, arabian), or
            even more (e.g. in many Australian languages). That's difficult to match on
            four témar.

            suilaid
            mach
          • Benct Philip Jonsson
            ... I have tried to write Sanskrit in Tengwar, using an appendage to the tinkoteema for the retroflex stops -- ideally the rightmost luuva should end in a tail
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 10, 2003
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              At 17:04 9.12.2003, elfscript@yahoogroups.com wrote:

              >Message: 12
              > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:41:37 +0100
              > From: mach <machhezan@...>
              >Subject: Re: Tengwar for other languages
              >
              >But my point was: What if that language has 5 places (sanskrit, arabian), or
              >even more (e.g. in many Australian languages). That's difficult to match on
              >four témar.
              >
              >suilaid
              >mach

              I have tried to write Sanskrit in Tengwar,
              using an appendage to the tinkoteema for the
              retroflex stops -- ideally the rightmost
              luuva should end in a tail like that of
              Roomen, but when writing in a Dan Smith
              font one has to use the s-curl. BTW I
              also use the caret tehta for vocalic .r,
              so that .t.r would be written 1Ú+
              I also used Arda for the retroflex .s

              I also once tried to squeeze Arabic into
              the four-teemar grid, but this is only
              feasible if one follows the Arabic tradition
              of regarding Jym as the voiced counterpart
              of Kaaf -- actually reasonable from the
              POV of the Egyptian pronunciation of 'Gym',
              and the emphatics as modifications
              of the dentals. If you are interested I
              can produce a readble table and upload it.




              /BP 8^)
              --
              B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /'Aestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)
            • mach
              ... Do you mean a curl that looks similar to an inverted s-letter? I used to write a following _r_ with this tehta in a Spanish mode where each syllable was
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 10, 2003
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                Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
                > I have tried to write Sanskrit in Tengwar,
                > using an appendage to the tinkoteema for the
                > retroflex stops -- ideally the rightmost
                > luuva should end in a tail like that of
                > Roomen,

                Do you mean a curl that looks similar to an inverted s-letter? I used to
                write a following _r_ with this tehta in a Spanish mode where each syllable
                was represented by one tengwa + tehtar (kind of a little game). I suppose
                you've chosen that tehta to show the phonetical similarity of the alveolars
                ("retroflex") to _r_, right?

                I've also found an old attempt of mine to represent Sanskrit with tengwar,
                but I couldn't decide whether I'd use a modified tincotéma (I just chose the
                point below like in Roman transcription) for the alveolars ("retroflex"), or
                whether I'd use calmatéma for the alveolars and a modified calmatéma (with
                the sign for following _y_) for the palatals. But I think your suggestion is
                better than both of mine.

                > but when writing in a Dan Smith
                > font one has to use the s-curl. BTW I
                > also use the caret tehta for vocalic .r,

                I used to write syllabic _r_ with a little rómen above (for the
                representation of my southern German dialect). I also used to have a
                v-shaped representation of a variant of _r_, but I used it was a variant of
                rómen in the same sence úre is a variant of vilya in the classical Quenya
                mode (again in that Spanish mode).

                > I also used Arda for the retroflex .s

                Very good suggestion!

                > I also once tried to squeeze Arabic into
                > the four-teemar grid, but this is only
                > feasible if one follows the Arabic tradition
                > of regarding Jym as the voiced counterpart
                > of Kaaf -- actually reasonable from the
                > POV of the Egyptian pronunciation of 'Gym',
                > and the emphatics as modifications
                > of the dentals. If you are interested I
                > can produce a readble table and upload it.

                Sure I'd be interested. I also once designed a mode for Arabian, and it also
                regards Jym as the voiced counterpart of Kaaf. See:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfscript/message/1501

                suilaid
                mach
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