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odd tehta

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  • Angasule
    I m writing in a hurry, so forgive any mistakes :) Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which had text in runes, tengwar with tehta
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
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      I'm writing in a hurry, so forgive any mistakes :)
      Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
      had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
      thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
      think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
      before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
      curious :)
      Angasule

      A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine.

      --

      A page about Tolkien, the Middle Ages and languages:
      http://angasule.cjb.net
      A page about Tolkien's languages: http://haldailin.angasule.cjb.net
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of _The Lord of
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
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        Angasule wrote:
        >
        > Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
        > had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
        > thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
        > think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
        > before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
        > curious :)

        To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed
        that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of
        _The Lord of the Rings_, in the word "by" -- although it here represents
        a different sound. Either way, these y-tehtar must both be concessions
        to English Roman orthography, since English lacks an independent /y/
        phoneme.

        Another possibility is that the y-tehta on the title-page (shaped like a
        V) is related to the ae-tehta (shaped like an upside-down a-tehta) found
        in _Artist and Illustrator_ (DTS 41), in which case it should represent
        the English diphthong /ai/ rather than the Roman letter <y>.

        Yours,
        Måns

        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
      • Angasule
        ... I don t have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend I m trying to convert , A&I I can t afford yet!). I ll check on the LotR example
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
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          Mans Bjorkman wrote:
          >
          > Angasule wrote:
          > >
          > > Reading Letters I ran across one addressed to Hugh Brogan (#118) which
          > > had text in runes, tengwar with tehta and a full tehta mode, the odd
          > > thing was a tehta used for English vocalic 'y' (in happy and very, I
          > > think it was) that looks like a breve and I don't remember seeing it
          > > before, does anyone know anything about that tehta? It just got me
          > > curious :)
          >
          > To my knowledge this tehta occurs only here. It has often been assumed
          > that this is an allograph of the tehta that occurs on the title-page of
          > _The Lord of the Rings_, in the word "by" -- although it here represents
          > a different sound. Either way, these y-tehtar must both be concessions
          > to English Roman orthography, since English lacks an independent /y/
          > phoneme.
          >
          > Another possibility is that the y-tehta on the title-page (shaped like a
          > V) is related to the ae-tehta (shaped like an upside-down a-tehta) found
          > in _Artist and Illustrator_ (DTS 41), in which case it should represent
          > the English diphthong /ai/ rather than the Roman letter <y>.
          I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
          I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
          LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
          concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
          explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
          Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
          interchangeable!
          Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
          be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
          does in LotR and A&I.
          Angasule

          A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine.

          --

          A page about Tolkien, the Middle Ages and languages:
          http://angasule.cjb.net
          A page about Tolkien's languages: http://haldailin.angasule.cjb.net
        • Mans Bjorkman
          ... OK, this is the situation: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 26, 2001
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            Angasule wrote:
            >
            > I don't have either A&I or LotR at this time (I lent LotR to a friend
            > I'm trying to 'convert', A&I I can't afford yet!). I'll check on the
            > LotR example later this month. Even though, I agree that it must be a
            > concession to roman ortography, it's the simplest and most logical
            > explanation. Is ae-tehta an upside-down V or it's formed by three dots?
            > Not that it'd make much of a difference since they're probably
            > interchangeable!
            > Could you give me more info on the A&I example? It could just as well
            > be that this a-tehta nuquerna has a different value in Letters than it
            > does in LotR and A&I.

            OK, this is the situation:

            Letter #118 (in "very happy")
            shape: 'breve'
            transcription: <y>
            sound: [i]
            LotR title-page (in "by")
            shape: V
            transcription: <y>
            sound: [ai]
            A&I ill. 186 (in *"claedioulas")
            shape: upside-down a-tehta (three dots)
            transcription: <ae>
            sound: [ai]

            It should also be mentioned that the last tehta is also used in some
            English inscriptions (A&I ill. 184) for /æ/, as in /spænish preyz fr
            britn/ and /næshnlist baking fr njoo dil/ (transcribed newspaper
            headlines).

            Yours,
            Måns


            --
            Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
            Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
            SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
            Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
          • DDanielA@webtv.net
            Måns Björkman deithant: Letter #118 (in very happy ) shape: breve transcription: sound: [i] LotR title-page (in by ) shape: V transcription:
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 8, 2001
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              Måns Björkman deithant:

              Letter #118 (in "very happy")
              shape: 'breve'
              transcription: <y>
              sound: [i]
              LotR title-page (in "by")
              shape: V
              transcription: <y>
              sound: [ai]

              Please allow me to add one more:
              LotR title-page (in "history")
              shape: V
              transcription: <y>
              sound: [i]

              So I agree that this tehta (and its variants) is a concession to
              orthography as it represents a written vocalic 'y' regardless of the
              vowel sound in the spoken word.

              Cuio mae, Danny.
            • Mans Bjorkman
              ... In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in history is conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me it looks more
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
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                DDanielA@... wrote:
                >
                > Please allow me to add one more:
                > LotR title-page (in "history")
                > shape: V
                > transcription: <y>
                > sound: [i]

                In my copies of The Lord of the Rings the y-tehta in "history" is
                conflated with, and partly obscured by, the previous o-tehta, and to me
                it looks more like a single dot. But perhaps the text is reproduced more
                clearly in other editions. Are you sure about your interpretation,
                Danny?

                Yours,
                Måns

                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
              • DDanielA@webtv.net
                Måns Björkman deithant: DDanielA@webtv.net wrote: Please allow me to add one more: LotR title-page (in history ) shape: V transcription: sound : [i] In
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 12, 2001
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                  Måns Björkman deithant:
                  DDanielA@... wrote:
                  Please allow me to add one more:
                  LotR title-page (in "history")
                  shape: V
                  transcription: <y>
                  sound : [i]

                  In my copies of The Lord of the Rings
                  the y-tehta in "history" is conflated
                  with, and partly obscured by, the
                  previous o-tehta, and to me it looks
                  more like a single dot. But perhaps
                  the text is reproduced more clearly in
                  other editions. Are you sure about your
                  interpretation, Danny?

                  Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
                  title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
                  in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.
                  Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
                  V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
                  because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
                  should.

                  Cuio mae, Danny.
                • Mans Bjorkman
                  ... Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case of fair
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 13, 2001
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                    DDanielA@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Yes, quite. This particular edition is a hardback edition where the
                    > title page inscription is reproduced larger and less 'compressed' than
                    > in the Ballantine paperback version. The inscription is very clear.

                    Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to
                    acquire a scan of this reproduction? (I think that would be a clear case
                    of fair use.)


                    > Actually to be honest, the y-tehta looks more like a 'check mark' than a
                    > V; the left 'leg' is shorter than the right, but it seems that that's
                    > because the o-tehta doesn't allow the left leg to extend up as far as it
                    > should.

                    In the copies I have access to, the y-tehta in "by" also has a shorter
                    left "leg". Perhaps this is after all a characteristic trait of the
                    tehta?

                    Yours,
                    Måns

                    --
                    Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                    Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                    SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                    Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                  • DDanielA@webtv.net
                    Måns Björkman deithant: Intriguing! Which edition is it, more precisely? Would it be possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction? It is a
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 15, 2001
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                      Måns Björkman deithant:
                      Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                      more precisely? Would it be
                      possible to acquire a scan of this reproduction?

                      It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                      also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                      'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                      Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                      written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                      circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                      eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                      version! As for scanning, I'm on WebTV, which is not scanner compatible,
                      but I will try to get it done on a friend's computer.

                      Cuio mae, Danny.
                    • Mans Bjorkman
                      ... Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997 3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume Houghton-Mifflin edition: the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 18, 2001
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                        DDanielA@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Måns Björkman deithant:
                        > Intriguing! Which edition is it,
                        > more precisely? Would it be
                        > possible to acquire a scan of this
                        > reproduction?
                        >
                        > It is a Houghton-Mifflin edition, one large volume. Strangely enough, I
                        > also have a three-book set by Houghton-Mifflin, and in these, the 'y' in
                        > 'history' is a dot. There is another difference in the two different
                        > Houghton-Mifflin versions: In the three-book set, the 'a' in 'as' is
                        > written with the three-dot tehta, but in the one-volume edition, a
                        > circumflex was used. Apparently the tehtar in one of the two different
                        > eitions were changed, but I'm not sure why, or which was the original
                        > version!

                        Both my HarperCollins editions (1991 one-volume hardback and 1997
                        3-volume paperback) seem to agree with your three-volume
                        Houghton-Mifflin edition: the "a" in "as" is three dots, and the "y" in
                        "history" appears to be a single dot. This seems to be the more common
                        version of the inscription. My guess would be that the one-volume
                        Houghton-Mifflin inscription is a redrawn version of the original. The
                        artist who made the redrawing probably wanted to correct points that
                        seemed ambigous or erroneous, and so "corrected" the y-tehta in
                        "history" to the hacek.

                        Yrs,
                        Måns

                        --
                        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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