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Re: [elfscript] Re: Devanagari: An Inspiration for the Tengwar?

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  • jonathan wust
    ... In J. Allan: An Introduction to Elvish , there is given a script which has even a lot more coincidences with the tengwar: a
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 8, 2001
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      <helge.fauskanger@...>
      > wrote:
      >> > Were there other models [than the Devanagari] for other aspects of the
      >Tengwar?

      In J. Allan: "An Introduction to Elvish", there is given a script which has even a lot more coincidences with the tengwar: a "Universal Alphabet" by some guy from XVIth or XVIIth century � I dont remember it exactly (I would have to go for the book). As tengwar, it has also a regular formation of the letters, and all the vowels are marked by diacritics. But I dont think there could be any evidence that Tolkien would have known it.

      >It has often been suggested that the idea of expressing vowels with
      >diacritical marks was based on Hebrew writing. Hebrew is a language (and
      >writing) which Tolkien definitely studied; he even translated the Book of
      >Jonah for the Jerusalem Bible.

      I think you cant say the tengwar function like hebrew (or like arabic), unless you say, like the hebrew which is used in the bible (or the arabic used in the koran), because normal texts dont use any diacritics � they omit all the vowels but the long, which are written with consonantal signs.

      As far as I know, only some very exotic writing systems make a regular use of diacritics to represent the vowels: the systems used for the ethiopian language and some systems used to write indigenous northern american languages (Cree for example, if Im not wrong). But these writing systems dont put the diacritics above the consonantal signs, but they are kind of graphical modifiers. The results are writing systems which are similar to syllabic writing systems (and theyre often called so).

      Well, I dont think the tengwar could be based in these systems, but I think, they are the existing writing systems which are the most similar to tengwar � as systems, not as forms, of course!

      yours, choni

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    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      I ve always thought that the tengwar bear a resemblance to the Syriac script. It s more cursive in appearance than Hebrew, but not not to the same extent as
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 8, 2001
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      • Abrigon
        Well, since JRRT was either born or raised until like age 10 (?) in South Africa, and they have a large Indian population. I suspect he had some aquaintence
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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          Well, since JRRT was either born or raised until like age 10 (?) in
          South Africa, and they have a large Indian population. I suspect he
          had some aquaintence with it before he became a professor.

          Sanskrit is more a syllybary than an alphabet. But I have noticed the
          similiar look before. But from what I have read, there was a gentleman
          in England some 20 years before Tolkien that had an Alphabet that was
          almost exectly in form to Tengwar, maybe not in values.

          Mike
        • Abrigon
          Well, what we call Hebrew (the script) is only one of many scripts the speakers of Hebrew have used from ancient Egyptian times to recent. To include the same
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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            Well, what we call Hebrew (the script) is only one of many scripts the
            speakers of Hebrew have used from ancient Egyptian times to recent. To
            include the same used for Arabic (modern), as well as Aramaic (the
            original script they used was more closed in form, and they adopted
            the Aramaic form.

            Diecritical marks, well have been around for a while, mostly in lingos
            like Arabic and Hebrew as ways to show vowels and like that are often
            not needed by fluent readers of the above lingos.

            From memory diacritical marks for Hebrew/Arabic were not used much
            until sometime after the 16th century (I forget when).

            Mike
            aka Morgoth, I like how it rolls of the tongue. And from what I can
            tell, it means like "Dark" "Goth(person)".
          • Abrigon
            Universal Alphabet, I remember it now, yes it looks alot like Tengwar in form. Might check Uighur/Tibetan/Mongol/Manchu direction of the lingos that came form
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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              Universal Alphabet, I remember it now, yes it looks alot like Tengwar
              in form.

              Might check Uighur/Tibetan/Mongol/Manchu direction of the lingos that
              came form the one for Sanskrit/Prakit.

              It can be an interesting inspiration for a lingo, since it is up/down,
              and right to left. But the decenders can give you some nice
              calligraphy.

              Mike
            • Abrigon
              http://homepage1.nifty.com/hobbit/english/tolkien/tengwar/index.html Examples of Tengwar, most importantly, of Japanese (Sorry no Dev)
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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                http://homepage1.nifty.com/hobbit/english/tolkien/tengwar/index.html

                Examples of Tengwar, most importantly, of Japanese (Sorry no Dev)


                http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm

                Has charts and all of the script, as well as a history, from the time
                of Brahmi.

                http://www.aczone.com/itrans/dvng/node3.html

                Another one, is aligned differently, but okay.
                This one is interesting, cause it shows the numerals, which are the
                origin of our "Arabic" numbers.

                http://cres20.anu.edu.au/~mccomas/devanagari.html

                Another one from a book.

                I do think I need to find my sources for Tibetan and other scriptos.

                I wish I had my "Elvish" books, lost it a while back in Canada.

                http://www.aczone.com/ilkeyb/ A keyboard program, might be interesting
                to see the source code and all, and see if it can be modified for
                Tengwar?

                Mike
              • Abrigon
                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9594/tibet.html It has much forms in common with Tengwar to including some of it s diacritical marks are the same, or
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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                  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9594/tibet.html

                  It has much forms in common with Tengwar to including some of it's
                  diacritical marks are the same, or close. Could also be an inspiration
                  for calligraphy.

                  Tibetan
                • John Cowan
                  ... Suure. Actually, it means Black Enemy . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Please leave your values |
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 16, 2001
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                    Abrigon scripsit:

                    > aka Morgoth, I like how it rolls of the tongue. And from what I can
                    > tell, it means like "Dark" "Goth(person)".

                    Suure.

                    Actually, it means "Black Enemy".

                    --
                    John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                    Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In fact,
                    at the front desk. | check your assumptions at the door.
                    --sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan
                  • Abrigon
                    Black Enemy, do you mean in the Elvish or do you mean in Gothic. The people who gave the name Goth to the language, but who were themselves very civilized once
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 17, 2001
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                      Black Enemy, do you mean in the Elvish or do you mean in Gothic.

                      The people who gave the name Goth to the language, but who were
                      themselves very civilized once they settled down, but sadly most when
                      they became christian, became Arian Christian, which to Catholics was
                      a heresy, same with their cousins the Vandals, who have the same
                      dislike in the western world. Even if it was the now Catholic
                      Visigoths who fell to the might of Islam in Spain. The goths existed
                      in the Crimea until around 1700, or so the stories go.

                      Goth is a Eastern Germanic lingo, verus the English/German being
                      Western Germanic, and Norse (and related tongues) as Northern
                      Germanic.

                      Mike
                      In Sindarian/Quenya it did mean the Black Enemy/Dark Enemy, while his
                      first name was Melkor, one who arises in might.. But after Feanor was
                      mindly corrupted by him, as well as cause Feanor to revolt against the
                      Vala, he was named Morgoth. Partially for his killing of Feanors
                      father, as well as poisoning the one tree and like. so that the only
                      light of the one tree in the world was the Silmarill.

                      --- In elfscript@y..., John Cowan <cowan@c...> wrote:
                      > Abrigon scripsit:
                      >
                      > > aka Morgoth, I like how it rolls of the tongue. And from what I
                      can
                      > > tell, it means like "Dark" "Goth(person)".
                      >
                      > Suure.
                      >
                      > Actually, it means "Black Enemy".
                      >
                      > --
                      > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                      cowan@c...
                      > Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In
                      fact,
                      > at the front desk. | check your assumptions at
                      the door.
                      > --sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan
                    • abrigon
                      We do need to remember Prof Tolkien was raised in part in South Africa, that has a large east indian population, atleast one time.. It is also where Gandhi
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 31, 2003
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                        We do need to remember Prof Tolkien was raised in part in South
                        Africa, that has a large east indian population, atleast one time.. It
                        is also where Gandhi learned a bit of his lawyer ways..

                        Not likely the Prof and Ganghi knew each other, but they had some
                        similar exposure in a same time/place..

                        Also seen in one of my books, a script by another English professor
                        that looks alot like the later Tengwar.. Not sure of it's origin and
                        all..

                        Mike
                      • John Cowan
                        ... Tolkien was born in S.A. and left there at age 4. Gandhi arrived at age 23 and left at age 44. Not much common ground there! -- John Cowan
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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                          abrigon scripsit:

                          > We do need to remember Prof Tolkien was raised in part in South
                          > Africa, that has a large east indian population, atleast one time.. It
                          > is also where Gandhi learned a bit of his lawyer ways..

                          Tolkien was born in S.A. and left there at age 4. Gandhi arrived at age
                          23 and left at age 44. Not much common ground there!

                          --
                          John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                          To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
                          are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
                          that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
                          --_The Hobbit_
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